Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

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Gilberreke
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Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#1 » 08 Jan 2019, 22:35

There have been a few limited node tournaments that have shown a really great way to learn the game is to be limited to a lower number of nodes at first. In the last 30-node tournament, at least two GMs made 30-node AIs better than their main AI (I was one of them, my 25-node is clearly outperforming my main AI). A big problem with the game right now is that it's too complex for new people to jump into. By forcing people to start with a more limited subset of the game at first, you can give them the tools and basics needed to more easily learn the game. Here's the idea:

A reward is defined as a one-time unlock, you can't lose a reward. This is important!

Ranked:
You are limited to 20 nodes total when starting out.
Master will allow you unlimited, since GM is quite exclusive to reach. Maybe even Master is too hard to reach and unlimited should happen at Diamond? I don't think this is the best way to learn the game, but getting into Master with just 50 nodes might be hard. Increasing the Diamond unlock to 100 would be pretty useless however, as that's not a very meaningful downgrade from just rewarding unlimited.

League rewards:
- Gold: 30 nodes
- Platinum: 40 nodes
- Diamond: 50 nodes
- Master: unlimited nodes

Unranked:

These changes would incentivize unranked, because for people ranked lower than Master, if they want to have fun with a giant AI, unranked would be the only place to run it. I think this would be a good thing, as it creates a more outlined use for unranked for beginners. They might have a big AI they made for campaign and unranked allows them to play it.

Counters/tags:
Counters/Tags might need to be gated behind some sort of unlock, so they don't open up straight away. I'm not sure where the best place is. GFX suggested making them an XP reward. This XP reward shouldn't be too harsh, but enough to make people enjoy the game for a while without them, so they see the game is already very complex and deep without a need for variables.


The Big Reset:

If these are implemented, there would probably need to be a one-time Big Reset (ghosts stay, but everyone is demoted to a rank of 1000). To stop this from being very annoying, a good way would probably to turn it into a fun community event. There will be a wild scramble for everyone to try and rank up to their previous ranking using smaller AIs. Most GMs will probably not suffer, but lower ranked Masters and higher ranked Diamond players might find the biggest hurdle to unlock Master to get access to their old AI again (you could still run it in unranked though).

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GFX47
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#2 » 09 Jan 2019, 00:19

There's other filter category that must be intimidating like x current action, distance from closest x, health/shield ratios, etc. Basically, starting with bot class, distance from me and health / shield should be enough to learn the basics and not limit too much the possibilities for a new player.
Also things like sub-ais and connectors could be delayed.

The node count limit increasing on each league promotion sounds like a good idea but I also wanted to give the choice to advanced players to play with limited AI size constraints.

Vanadio
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#3 » 09 Jan 2019, 15:44

A) I don't care resets, why one should care? Just deploy your best AI and you'll be back in the same spot (or am I missing something?).

B) node limits: thresholds must be carefully studied but I like the idea.

C) Big no to limiting also filters. Node limitation need at least the full potential of the arsenal. If you want low node count is because you want teach efficient AI building. And you need all filters to build efficient. This way the player learns everything in a "contained/limited" environment.

Ed-209
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#4 » 10 Jan 2019, 01:26

The last time you had unlocks at certain levels it was for the different bots. I remember that I personally didn't like being new with what was then limited ability to program since we didn't have all the filters and features now available and coming up against people from higher leagues that had unlocked bots I didn't have. Helped me a little to try to deal with them, but difficult since I couldn't use them even in practice. I remember a lot of people complained extensively about that.

If you limit filters or conditions or actions in the programming it won't be as obvious as all assaults coming up against the higher level bots at that time, but could be quite aggravating to newer players that have limited options against someone who has fallen back down the ranks with all the options and still much better AI. Limiting node count would be better as it will allow full use of the language in limited space which would help learning how to use the features efficiently.

Personally I think the programming options we have are great, but I did enjoy the game more when we were more limited with the filters and actions because it made a person have to be creative with what we had. I am not playing much at all anymore because learning how to properly use all the options available has made the game so complex for me that it is more like work. It is satisfying when I can get some things right, but when I can't figure out how to improve, I begin to ask myself why I am putting myself through the torture of more failure than success.

As complex as it is I think I need an owners manual. :?

pier4r
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#5 » 10 Jan 2019, 17:57

We tried already with limited filters and people cried "the ones that beat me do this because they unlocked the filters earlier". Was quite badly received.

I would put some tips about starting small, like "hey a suggestion. Try to reach master with less than 50 nodes". But having limited players and unlimited ones, although in different leagues will cause a lot of whine.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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GFX47
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#6 » 10 Jan 2019, 18:09

Yeah, actually, now that I remember, I'm not for it at all XD

pier4r
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#7 » 11 Jan 2019, 13:38

I have the idea I'm the historical memory of this game.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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GFX47
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#8 » 11 Jan 2019, 13:39

pier4ever

pier4r
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#9 » 13 Jan 2019, 13:10

as I wrote in chat - and that is going to be forgotten easily - I am more for a sort of second competition seeing which ghost performs better given its node count. Ghost because otherwise one may reach a high rating and then switch to no nodes ai . Instead the ghost has to survive.

The problem being: ghost gets picked slowly so one has deferred information.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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GFX47
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#10 » 13 Jan 2019, 17:20

I think tournaments are the best place for additional constraints. That's what makes them interesting because otherwise, with the regular conditions, it ends up just reflecting the elo based rankings most of the time.

pier4r
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#11 » 13 Jan 2019, 20:36

fair point :)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Gilberreke
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Re: Smoother progression with unlock system for nodes/filters

Post#12 » 18 Jan 2019, 08:29

I forgot to post here that I'm totally fine with tournaments being the place for additional contraint-based competition :)

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