New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#1 » 10 Jun 2018, 13:47

So, ghosts (awesome idea) together with other awesome features (random maps, multiple copy/paste in the editor and other juicy stuff here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=846 )appeared in early February 2018 with alpha 12.

Since then we had the chance to see the score system adapting to them. I just finished to reconstruct the 20th best scores since the introduction of alpha 12 (aside from alpha 12 RCs) here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1422

One can notice the increase of the maximum 20th best score. Of course the increase happens when a player temporarily dominate most of the existing ghosts and farms them. Another phenomena, mentioned in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1404 is that a ghost may be "farmed", lose 150 points, get disabled, the next deployment (ghost) gets kicked in, rinse and repeat. This may inject (not always, but sometimes) quite some points in the system.

While computing the 20th best score I realized the following, that will not solve the problem of score inflation, but it will slow it down over time.

A deployment is eligible as "inactive deployment" (ghost) only if that deployment broke a new personal best of the player.

Example, let's pick real data thanks to the awesome stats page.


the player is aoi and let's suppose that he has a personal best of 2225

all the following games release no active ghost, as no deployment breaks the record.

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 00:45:46 UTC 993697  Lokus (1943)    2198 +4
2018-06-06 00:46:34 UTC 993700   Vectorpleximus (2052)   2202 -14
2018-06-06 00:47:21 UTC 993702  Chrysophylax (2071)     2188 -13
2018-06-06 00:48:08 UTC 993706  mumpsimus (2238)        2175 +1
2018-06-06 00:48:56 UTC 993708  Good Bot (2574) 2176 -2
2018-06-06 00:49:28 UTC 993709  Arcueid_57 (1776)       2174 +2
2018-06-06 00:49:59 UTC 993711  Tortuga (2343)  2176 +2
2018-06-06 00:50:47 UTC 993713  masterplayer4000 (2222) 2178 +11
2018-06-06 00:51:30 UTC 993715  viva2 (1955)    2189 -16
2018-06-06 00:52:17 UTC 993717  Kaweb (1888)    2173 +3
2018-06-06 00:53:11 UTC 993719  IRRbertPC (1784)        2176 +2
2018-06-06 00:53:37 UTC 993720  ElvenMonky10 (1786)     2178 +2
2018-06-06 00:54:08 UTC 993722  jlk (2073)      2180 +7
2018-06-06 00:54:48 UTC 993723  Hairy Phil (2186)       2187 +10
2018-06-06 00:55:36 UTC 993724  DH! (2312)      2197 +13
2018-06-06 00:56:13 UTC 993726  Axxx (1813)     2210 +2
2018-06-06 00:56:46 UTC 993728  TanahAirKu (1939)       2212 +3
2018-06-06 00:57:12 UTC 993729  B_head (2529)   2215 -3
2018-06-06 00:57:45 UTC 993730  gtresd (2014)   2212 -15
2018-06-06 00:58:23 UTC 993732  kingsnowman (2014)      2197 +5
2018-06-06 00:58:47 UTC 993733  Mystliner#2 (1837)      2202 +2
2018-06-06 00:59:18 UTC 993735  Joni ja pojat (2181)    2204 +9
2018-06-06 00:59:54 UTC 993738  _Jax_ (1822)    2213 +2
2018-06-06 01:00:25 UTC 993739  jkgh (1921)     2215 +3


the following deployments mostly release ghosts due to the new personal best

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 01:01:10 UTC 993740  Streaker (2169) 2218 +9
^new ghost, new best 2227
2018-06-06 01:01:55 UTC 993742  B?D?wn (1848)   2227 +2
^new ghost, new best 2229
2018-06-06 01:02:31 UTC 993743  Milkhunter (2629)       2229 -2
^no ghost
2018-06-06 01:03:17 UTC 993744  Revenge (1912)  2227 +3
^new ghost, new best 2230
2018-06-06 01:03:41 UTC 993745  ghjk (2025)     2230 +5
^new ghost, new best 2235
2018-06-06 01:04:21 UTC 993746  Mcompany (2069) 2235 +6
^new ghost, new best 2241
2018-06-06 02:00:44 UTC 993795  nnay29 (1942)   2241 +3
^new ghost, new best 2244


the following won't release any ghost

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 02:01:08 UTC 993796  elvenmonk (1868)        2244 -18
2018-06-06 02:01:51 UTC 993797  SpecialCase (1830)      2226 +2
2018-06-06 02:02:32 UTC 993798  Blothorn (1850) 2228 +2
2018-06-06 02:03:06 UTC 993800  XyBot (1831)    2230 +2
2018-06-06 02:03:36 UTC 993801  ttaattaa (1872) 2232 +2
2018-06-06 02:04:23 UTC 993802  Pier4r Nvidia k1 (2167) 2234 -12
2018-06-06 02:05:02 UTC 993803  Bockwurst (2183)        2222 -11
2018-06-06 02:07:18 UTC 993804  ooops#T04 (1812)        2211 +2
2018-06-06 02:07:55 UTC 993805  Dnumev (1857)   2213 -18
2018-06-06 02:08:31 UTC 993806  Cynic_Alex (1869)       2195 +3
2018-06-06 02:09:13 UTC 993807  Ox1de (1804)    2198 +2
2018-06-06 02:09:59 UTC 993809  sdhj (1821)     2200 +2
2018-06-06 02:11:39 UTC 993810  GLaDOS Beta (1989)      2202 +5
2018-06-06 02:17:19 UTC 993813  Kogataru (1917) 2207 -17
2018-06-06 02:18:36 UTC 993816  HappyPoopy (1813)       2190 +2
2018-06-06 02:19:14 UTC 993818  Acho (2238)     2192 +11
2018-06-06 02:19:56 UTC 993819  tomcat_wrk (2033)       2203 +5
2018-06-06 02:20:24 UTC 993820  IRRbertRH (1808)        2208 +2
2018-06-06 02:20:49 UTC 993821  mrchris (2422)  2210 -5
2018-06-06 02:35:36 UTC 993835  ElvenMonky2 (2350)      2205 +14
2018-06-06 02:36:17 UTC 993837  jsjsjd (1824)   2219 +2
2018-06-06 02:38:49 UTC 993846  sollniss (2503) 2221 +17
2018-06-06 02:39:14 UTC 993849  Silver Crow (1865)      2238 -18
2018-06-06 02:40:01 UTC 993853  Krellion (2033) 2220 -15
2018-06-06 02:40:47 UTC 993855  Lokus (1936)    2205 +4
2018-06-06 02:41:13 UTC 993856  Zaxon (2165)    2209 +9
2018-06-06 02:41:43 UTC 993857  Jotunn (1889)   2218 +3
2018-06-06 02:42:41 UTC 993858  zGeneral (2040) 2221 +5
2018-06-06 02:43:12 UTC 993859  Miojo (2187)    2226 -11
2018-06-06 02:43:53 UTC 993860  Good Bot (2615) 2215 -2
2018-06-06 02:44:33 UTC 993861  Rekadon1 (1813) 2213 +2
2018-06-06 02:45:07 UTC 993863  viva2 (1941)    2215 +3
2018-06-06 02:45:43 UTC 993864  IRRbertPC (1818)        2218 +2
2018-06-06 02:46:22 UTC 993865  Chrysophylax (2083)     2220 -14
2018-06-06 02:47:10 UTC 993866  ElvenMonky (1966)       2206 +4
2018-06-06 02:47:56 UTC 993867  Kaweb (1883)    2210 -17
2018-06-06 02:48:23 UTC 993869  Koza? (1867)    2193 -4
2018-06-06 02:49:09 UTC 993870  Hairy Phil (2184)       2189 +10
2018-06-06 02:49:39 UTC 993871  Vectorpleximus (2064)   2199 +6
2018-06-06 02:50:05 UTC 993872  mumpsimus (2268)        2205 -8
2018-06-06 02:50:39 UTC 993873  jlk (2067)      2197 +6
2018-06-06 02:51:10 UTC 993874  Axxx (1809)     2203 +2
2018-06-06 02:51:39 UTC 993875  Mystliner#2 (1835)      2205 +2
2018-06-06 02:52:06 UTC 993877  masterplayer4000 (2211) 2207 +10
2018-06-06 02:53:18 UTC 993879  TanahAirKu (1934)       2217 -17
2018-06-06 02:53:52 UTC 993880  Tortuga (2328)  2200 -6
2018-06-06 02:54:40 UTC 993882  Streaker (2169) 2194 +9
2018-06-06 02:55:15 UTC 993884  gtresd (2025)   2203 +5
2018-06-06 02:56:01 UTC 993885  kingsnowman (2005)      2208 -15
2018-06-06 02:56:50 UTC 993887  _Jax_ (1820)    2193 -4
2018-06-06 02:58:18 UTC 993888  Revenge (1909)  2189 +3
2018-06-06 02:58:40 UTC 993890  mumps (1947)    2192 +4
2018-06-06 02:59:10 UTC 993892  ghjk (2020)     2196 +5
2018-06-06 02:59:36 UTC 993894  Joni ja pojat (2172)    2201 -11
2018-06-06 03:00:21 UTC 993895  B?D?wn (1804)   2190 +2
2018-06-06 03:01:03 UTC 993896  jkgh (1916)     2192 +3
2018-06-06 03:01:30 UTC 993898  nnay29 (1939)   2195 -16
2018-06-06 03:02:05 UTC 993899  Blothorn (1848) 2179 +3
2018-06-06 03:02:39 UTC 993900  elvenmonk (1809)        2182 +2
2018-06-06 03:03:11 UTC 993901  Pier4r Nvidia k1 (2179) 2184 -10
2018-06-06 03:03:58 UTC 993902  B_head (2552)   2174 -2
2018-06-06 03:08:22 UTC 993906  Milkhunter (2554)       2172 -2
2018-06-06 03:08:52 UTC 993907  ElvenMonky10 (1773)     2170 +2
2018-06-06 03:09:37 UTC 993909  Cynic_Alex (1866)       2172 +3
2018-06-06 03:10:18 UTC 993910  ttaattaa (1870) 2175 +3
2018-06-06 03:10:46 UTC 993911  DH! (2292)      2178 +13
2018-06-06 03:11:31 UTC 993913  Mcompany (2056) 2191 -14
2018-06-06 03:12:14 UTC 993914  tomcat_wrk (2028)       2177 -14
2018-06-06 03:12:35 UTC 993915  ooops#T04 (1824)        2163 +2
2018-06-06 03:13:22 UTC 993916  Arcueid_57 (1774)       2165 +2
2018-06-06 03:14:12 UTC 993917  Acho (2238)     2167 -8
2018-06-06 03:15:37 UTC 993918  ElvenMonky2 (2336)      2159 +15
2018-06-06 14:10:34 UTC 994304  SpecialCase (1776)      2174 +2
2018-06-06 14:11:02 UTC 994305  Bockwurst (2198)        2176 +11
2018-06-06 14:11:49 UTC 994307  Dnumev (1799)   2187 +2
2018-06-06 14:12:21 UTC 994308  Jotunn (1886)   2189 +3
2018-06-06 14:12:49 UTC 994309  Miojo (2236)    2192 -9
2018-06-06 14:13:29 UTC 994311  Good Bot (2583) 2183 -2
2018-06-06 14:14:04 UTC 994313  zGeneral (2038) 2181 +6
2018-06-06 14:14:37 UTC 994315  Lokus (1916)    2187 +3
2018-06-06 14:15:06 UTC 994317  Krellion (2043) 2190 +6
2018-06-06 14:15:53 UTC 994318  Zaxon (2159)    2196 +9
2018-06-06 14:16:29 UTC 994319  HappyPoopy (1820)       2205 +2
2018-06-06 14:16:58 UTC 994320  jsjsjd (1822)   2207 +2
2018-06-06 14:17:32 UTC 994321  sollniss (2485) 2209 -3
2018-06-06 14:18:07 UTC 994322  Rekadon1 (1809) 2206 +2
2018-06-06 14:18:52 UTC 994323  sdhj (1819)     2208 +2
2018-06-06 14:19:32 UTC 994324  mrchris (2456)  2210 +16
2018-06-06 14:20:10 UTC 994325  GLaDOS Beta (1977)      2226 +4
2018-06-06 14:21:12 UTC 994327  Koza? (1871)    2230 -18
2018-06-06 14:21:47 UTC 994328  Hairy Phil (2172)       2212 -11
2018-06-06 14:22:33 UTC 994332  Kaweb (1900)    2201 +3
2018-06-06 14:23:02 UTC 994333  XyBot (1830)    2204 +2
2018-06-06 14:23:48 UTC 994334  Kogataru (1929) 2206 +3
2018-06-06 14:24:35 UTC 994337  Silver Crow (1884)      2209 +3
2018-06-06 14:25:16 UTC 994339  mumpsimus (2259)        2212 +11
2018-06-06 14:26:03 UTC 994340  Chrysophylax (2087)     2223 +6
2018-06-06 14:26:48 UTC 994342  Axxx (1838)     2229 +2


finally some new ghosts

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 14:27:22 UTC 994344  Tortuga (2330)  2231 +13
^equalling the previous personal best 2244


let's wait again

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 14:28:20 UTC 994346  Streaker (2148) 2244 -13
2018-06-06 14:28:58 UTC 994347  ElvenMonky (1970)       2231 +4
2018-06-06 14:29:34 UTC 994349  jlk (2046)      2235 +5
2018-06-06 14:30:21 UTC 994350  Revenge (1906)  2240 +3


new ghosts incoming

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 14:30:45 UTC 994351  _Jax_ (1843)    2243 +2
^new best 2245
2018-06-06 14:31:09 UTC 994352  TanahAirKu (1990)       2245 +4
^new best 2249


deployments that do not release active ghosts

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 14:59:52 UTC 994380  Vectorpleximus (2053)   2249 -15
2018-06-06 15:00:27 UTC 994382  kingsnowman (2019)      2234 -16
2018-06-06 15:01:04 UTC 994384  Joni ja pojat (2184)    2218 -11
2018-06-06 15:04:21 UTC 994386  jkgh (1913)     2207 +3
2018-06-06 15:04:57 UTC 994387  Mystliner#2 (1833)      2210 +2
2018-06-06 15:05:24 UTC 994388  ghjk (2032)     2212 +5
2018-06-06 15:06:03 UTC 994389  mumps (1941)    2217 +3
2018-06-06 15:06:42 UTC 994390  Blothorn (1845) 2220 +2
2018-06-06 15:07:17 UTC 994391  nnay29 (1953)   2222 +4
2018-06-06 15:07:51 UTC 994392  gtresd (2019)   2226 +5
2018-06-06 15:08:21 UTC 994393  ttaattaa (1868) 2231 +2
2018-06-06 15:08:54 UTC 994394  B_head (2528)   2233 -3
2018-06-06 15:09:32 UTC 994395  B?D?wn (1846)   2230 -4
2018-06-06 15:10:19 UTC 994396  Pier4r Nvidia k1 (2193) 2226 +9
2018-06-06 15:11:05 UTC 994397  Mcompany (2064) 2235 +5


some new ones!

Code: Select all

2018-06-06 15:11:42 UTC 994399  DH! (2248)      2240 +10
^new ghost 2250
2018-06-09 15:08:33 UTC 998270  ooops#T04 (1857)        2250 +2
^new ghost 2252


no active ghosts

Code: Select all

2018-06-09 15:09:28 UTC 998272  tomcat_wrk (1988)       2252 -16
2018-06-09 15:10:03 UTC 998273  gossan (1846)   2236 +2
2018-06-09 15:10:35 UTC 998275  Milkhunter (2636)       2238 -2
2018-06-09 15:11:16 UTC 998276  Cynic_Alex (1919)       2236 +3
2018-06-09 15:11:53 UTC 998277  Acho (2200)     2239 +9
2018-06-09 15:12:40 UTC 998279  SpecialCase (1850)      2248 +2
2018-06-09 15:13:28 UTC 998280  Bockwurst (2174)        2250 -12
2018-06-09 15:14:04 UTC 998282  ElvenMonky2 (2616)      2238 -2
2018-06-09 15:14:38 UTC 998283  Jotunn (1892)   2236 +2
2018-06-09 15:15:08 UTC 998284  zGeneral (2060) 2238 +5
2018-06-09 15:15:35 UTC 998285  Dnumev (1871)   2243 +2
2018-06-09 15:16:09 UTC 998287  elvenmonk (1880)        2245 +2
2018-06-09 15:16:40 UTC 998288  Krellion (1995) 2247 +4
2018-06-09 15:17:28 UTC 998290  Good Bot (2650) 2251 -2


new active ghosts

Code: Select all

2018-06-09 15:18:11 UTC 998291  sollniss (2520) 2249 +17
^new personal best 2266


let's wait again. No new ghosts will be released

Code: Select all

2018-06-09 15:19:21 UTC 998293  sdhj (1952)     2266 -17
2018-06-09 15:20:03 UTC 998294  IRRbertPC (1850)        2249 +2
2018-06-09 15:20:39 UTC 998296  GLaDOS Beta (1953)      2251 +3
2018-06-09 15:21:15 UTC 998297  Lokus (1941)    2254 -17
2018-06-09 15:21:48 UTC 998298  Zaxon (2192)    2237 +9
2018-06-09 15:22:30 UTC 998300  masterplayer4000 (2170) 2246 -12
2018-06-09 15:23:04 UTC 998301  mrchris (2441)  2234 +3
2018-06-09 15:23:55 UTC 998303  HappyPoopy (1858)       2237 +2
2018-06-09 15:24:35 UTC 998305  Koza? (1886)    2239 -18
2018-06-09 15:25:21 UTC 998307  Kogataru (1913) 2221 -17
2018-06-09 15:26:20 UTC 998310  viva2 (1908)    2204 +3
2018-06-09 15:26:49 UTC 998311  Hairy Phil (2199)       2207 -10
2018-06-09 15:27:29 UTC 998312  Ox1de (1802)    2197 +2
2018-06-09 15:28:10 UTC 998313  Tortuga (2424)  2199 +16
2018-06-10 09:43:33 UTC 999377  mumpsimus (2334)        2215 -7
2018-06-10 09:44:13 UTC 999378  IRRbertRH (1809)        2208 +2
2018-06-10 09:44:36 UTC 999379  jlk (2141)      2210 +8
2018-06-10 09:45:09 UTC 999380  _Jax_ (1881)    2218 +3
2018-06-10 09:45:35 UTC 999381  Kaweb (1885)    2221 -4
2018-06-10 09:46:21 UTC 999382  Revenge (1949)  2217 +4
2018-06-10 09:46:47 UTC 999383  jsjsjd (1824)   2221 +2
2018-06-10 09:47:11 UTC 999384  Chrysophylax (2117)     2223 +7
2018-06-10 09:47:44 UTC 999385  TanahAirKu (1998)       2230 -16
2018-06-10 09:48:21 UTC 999387  Streaker (2124) 2214 +7
2018-06-10 09:49:02 UTC 999389  ghjk (2050)     2221 +5
2018-06-10 09:49:28 UTC 999390  jkgh (1911)     2226 -17
2018-06-10 09:50:11 UTC 999391  Silver Crow (1863)      2209 +2
2018-06-10 09:50:37 UTC 999392  ElvenMonky (1888)       2211 +3
2018-06-10 09:51:16 UTC 999394  Vectorpleximus (2068)   2214 +6
2018-06-10 09:51:52 UTC 999395  mumps (1927)    2220 +3
2018-06-10 09:52:30 UTC 999397  Axxx (1834)     2223 +2
2018-06-10 09:52:53 UTC 999398  Mystliner#2 (1839)      2225 +2
2018-06-10 09:53:28 UTC 999401  nnay29 (1967)   2227 -16
2018-06-10 09:53:55 UTC 999404  Pier4r Nvidia k1 (2251) 2211 -9
2018-06-10 09:54:33 UTC 999406  ttaattaa (1852) 2202 +2
2018-06-10 09:55:04 UTC 999408  gtresd (2129)   2204 +8
2018-06-10 09:55:40 UTC 999409  B?D?wn (1825)   2212 +2
2018-06-10 09:56:20 UTC 999413  Joni ja pojat (2186)    2214 +9
2018-06-10 09:57:07 UTC 999415  Mcompany (2016) 2223 -3
2018-06-10 09:57:56 UTC 999417  Blothorn (1853) 2220 +2
2018-06-10 09:58:30 UTC 999418  Acho (2204)     2222 -11
2018-06-10 09:59:11 UTC 999419  kingsnowman (2015)      2211 +5
2018-06-10 09:59:46 UTC 999420  SpecialCase (1819)      2216 +2
2018-06-10 10:00:18 UTC 999422  B_head (2483)   2218 -4
2018-06-10 10:00:49 UTC 999425  Bockwurst (2172)        2214 +9
2018-06-10 10:01:31 UTC 999427  zGeneral (2041) 2223 +5
2018-06-10 10:02:08 UTC 999429  ooops#T04 (1844)        2228 +2



So instead of 216 ghosts, that in the worst case get farmed one after another until they lose 150 points, we can have just 12 ghosts that represents successful peak of the player (so they should be also representing the "best production" of the player).

There is a catch though. This method will likely work under the condition of inflation (that is a pretty sure event with ghosts) so sooner or later an active player will break his personal best. Only it will happen quite slowly compared to now.
Last edited by pier4r on 10 Jun 2018, 21:51, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

User avatar
Revenge
Neural Network
Neural Network
Posts: 347
Contact:

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#2 » 10 Jun 2018, 16:15

I don't understand... Is there a problem with the way ghosts are now? It seems counterproductive to deploy less ghosts.

masterplayer
Script
Script
Posts: 33

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#3 » 10 Jun 2018, 20:41

Revenge wrote:I don't understand... Is there a problem with the way ghosts are now? It seems counterproductive to deploy less ghosts.

The more ghosts the more score inflation.

pier4r wrote:[...]

+1
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#4 » 10 Jun 2018, 21:50

Revenge wrote:I don't understand... Is there a problem with the way ghosts are now? It seems counterproductive to deploy less ghosts.


Not necessarily if the ghost is really strong. If the ghost is a test ai that will be overwritten with a better one in, say, 2-3 days, in the meanwhile it may get farmed and then the ghost (deployment) immediately before that and so on.

The idea is to have "few" (well they won't be that few, as every deployment that is a new best score is a new ghost) but solid ghosts that are not farmed that easily because they represent some of the best performances of the player.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ElvenMonk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 86

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#5 » 11 Jun 2018, 06:14

pier4r wrote:...

+1

This way player may be allowed to play its own ghosts, without risk to go to infinity.

Also, might be useful to only create new ghost, if AI or Team Setup has changed. But it would require comparison with previously deployed ghost...

And finally it should make most recent and highest-score ghost of a player to be almost probably the same ghost, which is great.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#6 » 11 Jun 2018, 12:10

ElvenMonk wrote:
This way player may be allowed to play its own ghosts, without risk to go to infinity.

This I wouldn't do it. Not because there is a risk to go to infinity (as the suggestion would pick a "strong" ghost) rather because the idea is to play against the others, not solo.

For the additional "create a new ghost only if team setup or ai change", with a sort of checksum, is also a possibility but I guess it is not immediate (for the ai, even moving things around would change the checksum I think). It is surely already an improvement to move from 216 to 12 ghosts.

The last point: it depends if you are in range. The highest score ghost will be (almost) always in range "at the top".
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ElvenMonk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 86

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#7 » 11 Jun 2018, 20:59

Revenge wrote:It seems counterproductive to deploy less ghosts.


You can't play against same opponent twice within half an hour, no metter how many hosts it has. And best score ghosts will still cover all the range from 1000 ELO to player's current score.

ElvenMonk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 86

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#8 » 13 Jun 2018, 22:26

OMG, I think I'm abusing ghosts inflation now to fight for top, without having better AI then players with higher ELO. I'm doing so by trying a lot of unsuccessful setups, producing number of ghosts, that feed players with lower score. Then I can harvest their ghosts and move forward. By deploying more matches, then players I'm chasing, I'm able to shorten the score distance significantly (even if I lose all matches to those few players).
I believe, at least something has to be done about this.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#9 » 13 Jun 2018, 23:10

First and foremost. If you are concerned about ghosts farming, you don't go making 4 accounts (different ones, that can be farmed at the same time).

Aside from the above this is an old phenomena actually. Before the ghosts I was interested in the "net trade" of points and while I expected that the 2000+ guys where harvesting the 1800-2000 guys it was not the case. http://pier4r.wikidot.com/pierworks:art ... lo-inights

In short the 1800-2000 guys where harvesting the 2000+ players. Only few 2000+ players harvested the others too and got higher.

If you have a dominating AI, that gains more that it loses, there is little to do about it. You go up. Sure, inflation may be faster if there are a lot of "broken ghosts" but there will be there. And once again, don't fix yourself on the absolute score, rather on the difference.

Also even if you release relatively broken ai, if you got 2550 with that broken deployment and then the good one (that is newer) is 2620, the broken deployment is available only for little time. Then the better one replaces it. The people that can see the ghost at 2550 and not the one at 2620 are not that much so there is little to "get" from your broken deployments.

Plus the fact that you "farm players that farm your broken deployment" is unlikely. There are few active players that spams a lot. Maybe 5-6 in a week in grandmaster. Those players, being lower than you (and likely 2300 or lower), have a lot of ghosts to play against. Even if they pick your broken ghost they pick it few times (rather. Since you have 4 ghosts, you are picked 4 times. That is meh. Having 4 different ghosts that can be picked in the same cycle). Few times are not enough to move a lot of points around. I am 2200 and I counted 61 different ghosts. So to pick your broken deployment multiple times I should play hundreds of games in a short time and this simply doesn't happen, aside from mumpsimus.

Also remember that ghosts do not play other ghosts. Therefore the only players that can benefit from this are those that play a lot. In those weeks those are (except elvenmonky2):
mumpsimus
aoi

all the others have less than 150 games in the last 7 days, namely they won't meet your ghost often enough to suck enough points from it.

In short, it is a no problem.
Surely, my suggestion would cut the problem altogether as the broken deployments produce no new record and therefore won't generate any active ghost.

Last but not least. Remember that "farming those from lower score" is a dream. either you never lose, or farming repeatedly +2 and +3 is compensated by the first -18 defeat.

For example consider this:
6/12/2018, 1:14:39 PM 1002993 aoi (2240) 2637 -18
you need the following wins to compensate this (considering players with way lower score)
6/12/2018, 12:53:41 AM 1002516 Miojo (2282) 2635 +2
6/12/2018, 12:50:45 AM 1002511 Tortuga (2324) 2632 +3
6/12/2018, 12:43:25 AM 1002491 Acho (2285) 2628 +2
6/12/2018, 12:39:21 AM 1002480 aoi (2242) 2626 +2
6/12/2018, 12:37:47 AM 1002474 Streaker (2236) 2624 +2
6/12/2018, 12:31:49 AM 1002457 Pier4r Nvidia k1 (2244) 2608 +2
6/12/2018, 12:30:33 AM 1002453 Bockwurst (2240) 2606 +2
6/12/2018, 12:28:40 AM 1002448 Mcompany (2292) 2603 +3
6/12/2018, 12:23:42 AM 1002441 gtresd (2190) 2588 +2

And of those wins, very few are intensively active players. Mostly those are ghost of idle or semi idle players that won't change their score actively. Bockwurst plays but not that much. Mcompany 2300 ghosts is not the ghost released by the active mcompany that is around 1950.
gtresd is not that active. I am not that active. Streaker is idle. Tortuga is not that active. miojo is idle. Aoi is semi active. Acho is idle.

So you are farming ghosts that are mostly not influenced by your broken ghost.
This unless there is a player (even only one is enough) that is plays so much that is able to redistribute points among ghosts. Mumpsimus does this sometimes but since he is going over 2400 this doesn't happen anymore.

It would be great if you would understand how the system work a bit better and you would stop obsessing about absolute scores. It is a non-problem. It is like trying to see something that is blue with red glasses.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#10 » 14 Jun 2018, 11:05

There is one catch to my suggestion though.

Imagine a player that reaches a new top, say 2100 and then for long time he is unable to get better or he is testing something else. The old best ghost may lose 150 points after months and be disabled, and so no ghosts are available, lowering the variety in ghosts.

In the case the last ghost "in range" gets disabled, I would start to pick the closest deployment (in score) to that best score ghost of a never active ghost and activate it.

Or we just accept that variety could go down when ghosts are not that strong. I find the option not bad.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ElvenMonk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 86

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#11 » 14 Jun 2018, 11:24

Do we still need to disable ghosts after losing 150 points, if we only create best score ones?

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#12 » 14 Jun 2018, 12:26

This is a good point. I guess it won't be needed.

Nonetheless my point was more like "imagine that somehow for months a player cannot break his best score, although his tactics are way better than the oldest best score bot due to tactic evolution".

Something like:

Code: Select all

if "player has played more than 500 games since last active ghost" AND "player last active ghost is older than 60 days" then
  activate deployment
end


In this way the previous deployment is not activated, but it is avoided that the last active deployment gets too old if the player played enough in the meanwhile.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ElvenMonk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 86

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#13 » 14 Jun 2018, 22:30

Ok, I'll show why ghosts really make a difference.
Imagine we have only 2 players on server: User(1000) and Abuser(1000). User has only one "okAI" and never changes it. Abuser has 2 AIs: "loseAI" and "winAI". "loseAI" always loses, "winAI" always wins to "okAI".
First they need to play active deployment. Important: Abuser uses its "loseAI". After game 2 ghosts are created. Abuser#1L(975) and User#1(1025)
Abuser then waits while User reaches 1200, At which point Abuser#1L is 800 and there are ghosts of User all the way to 1200.
Then Abuser switches to "winAI" and plays until he reaches 1500+.
Then Abuser switches back to "loseAI" and falls to 1200.
Now both User and Abuser are at 1200 and User is hardly going to meet "winAI", because "loseAI" ghosts are more recent.
Next stop can be at 1400 at so on.

It's almost like fridge works.
If Abuser will deploy AIs in opposite order (winAI first) they can both go to 800, then to 600...

I agree, that with lots of players not aware of this phenomena, system can stay stable, but I still believe I'm able to abuse it simply by switching my team setup and deploying a lot of matches.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#14 » 14 Jun 2018, 23:02

Not really because you are considering one user and one abuser (plus you are ignoring how the elo+matchmaking works). With many other users (that try their best, always) it is more difficult to do what you did. You can try if you want (since you have 4 accounts).

Try to make a lose ai and then swap back your original ai (but being honest), you won't get much far from your previous best.

The problem for me is another one.

Without ghosts the amount of points in the system is always the same.
Player A, B, C starts at 1000 points, they may end up at 800, 900 and 1300 respectively. Note that 1000*3 = 800 + 900 + 1300

With ghosts new points are added to the system, as the ghosts may start with more than 1000 points.

So player A, B, C starts at 1000, they end up at 800, 900, 1300 and their ghosts are also there. Actually doubling the points in the system. Because it is like having (800+900+1300)*2 this means that the scores get proportionally increased. Once again the differences will be right, while the absolute value is scaled.

So what I wanted to achieve with this suggestion (n1) is to activate less ghosts, possibily activating good ones, so the points released in the system are not that much in short time.

Remember the 20th best score tournament.
2018-02-25 ~ 2200 points
2018-03-25, 1 month later, ~ 2320 points +120
2018-04-29, 1 month later, ~2420 points +100
2018-05-27, 1 month later, ~ 2740 points +320 points (this due to an AI really dominating the majority of other ghosts)


Now inflation is inevitable with a system without taxes, and of course it is emphasized if one can really dominate most of the opponents. Nonetheless even without complete domination one has +100 points per month. I think leaving active fewer (not few, rather fewer) good ghosts would keep it lower. Say, 20-30 points per month while keeping the variety.

n1: the suggestion in the meanwhile developed on discord. Now we are discussing to keep only one ghost that represent the best score of the last X games (X for me is 100, for elvenmonk is 20 but I think 20 is too little). While GFX would like to do a smaller step - that is still better than the actual situation - enabling ghosts only when a player wins.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

MrChris
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 157

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#15 » 06 Jul 2018, 01:16

Ghosts should be the last AI that you won with. Ideally you would only play against the current version of a player, but sometimes people deploy games with big bugs so there might be an issue with that. Sticking to the AI of the latest win.
------------------------------------------------
My in-game name is MrChris

Creator of the unofficial Gladiabots stats page: https://gladiabots-stats.info.tm/mrchris
And the Gladiabots retreatment simulator: https://cmrichards.github.io/glad_simulation

User avatar
GFX47
Dev Team
Posts: 2485

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#16 » 06 Jul 2018, 16:30

For Alpha 14, I'll try to only pick ghosts that didn't get lower than their initial score.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3122

Re: New way to deploy ghosts. Activate only those that are new personal best.

Post#17 » 07 Jul 2018, 01:17

well also that is an idea, although a bit of buffer should be given. The problem is "how much".

One can say "ghosts that do not lose much against players with way lower score" but once again the problem is deciding "lose much" and "way lower score".
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Return to “Requests”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests