Target Lines on Red Team

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Kanishka
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Target Lines on Red Team

Post#1 » 21 Jun 2017, 06:33

Can we get target lines on Red Team like we have on Blue Team?
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#2 » 21 Jun 2017, 11:24

Tried it in test mode but it makes the scene pretty unreadable when opponents target each other, lines overlapping etc.
And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.

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TheGnoo
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#3 » 21 Jun 2017, 13:50

Maybe just a button to switch between red and blue could be cool.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#4 » 21 Jun 2017, 15:39

TheGnoo wrote:Maybe just a button to switch between red and blue could be cool.


+∞!!!
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#5 » 21 Jun 2017, 15:39

GFX47 wrote:Tried it in test mode but it makes the scene pretty unreadable when opponents target each other, lines overlapping etc.
And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.


I could pause every tick and use a ruler to trace the turret direction...
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#6 » 21 Jun 2017, 19:41

GFX47 wrote:And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.
Limit it to what the bots themselves can detect. The bots can detect if an enemy bot is attacking / moving / idle / etc. So there is no reason for making that information harder for the player themselves to detect

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#7 » 22 Jun 2017, 03:00

I think that it will reveal too much information to the opponent.

I request to hide the target lines in fast forward mode. Looks a little bit messy and they are only useful when analyzing in micro-level.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#8 » 22 Jun 2017, 03:47

GFX47 wrote:And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.


Castlevania wrote:I think that it will reveal too much information to the opponent.


Kanishka wrote:I could pause every tick and use a ruler to trace the turret direction...


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#9 » 22 Jun 2017, 05:11

Kanishka wrote:
GFX47 wrote:Tried it in test mode but it makes the scene pretty unreadable when opponents target each other, lines overlapping etc.
And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.


I could pause every tick and use a ruler to trace the turret direction...

And Ritter has a debug subtree to be able to tell when any bot is considered as being under attack, and I've been analyzing games for months, sometimes tick by tick, judging who is attacking whom without the need of a ruler and if I really wanted to I could go tick by tick and try to determine the exact ticks that anyone laid down a tag (and have a good clue which bot the tag was place on in most cases). I don't think it would show any more information than what is already currently available.

Castlevania wrote:I request to hide the target lines in fast forward mode. Looks a little bit messy and they are only useful when analyzing in micro-level.

Personal, I'm going to say no to this. There are sometimes where I use this to help determine what is going on during fast forwards
TheGnoo wrote:Maybe just a button to switch between red and blue could be cool.

+1

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#10 » 22 Jun 2017, 07:25

My debug subtree!
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#11 » 22 Jun 2017, 17:26

mcompany wrote:
Kanishka wrote:
GFX47 wrote:Tried it in test mode but it makes the scene pretty unreadable when opponents target each other, lines overlapping etc.
And I'm not sure it wouldn't give away too much info from your opponent.


I could pause every tick and use a ruler to trace the turret direction...

And Ritter has a debug subtree to be able to tell when any bot is considered as being under attack, and I've been analyzing games for months, sometimes tick by tick, judging who is attacking whom without the need of a ruler and if I really wanted to I could go tick by tick and try to determine the exact ticks that anyone laid down a tag (and have a good clue which bot the tag was place on in most cases). I don't think it would show any more information than what is already currently available.
This^

The information is already there. Direct display simply speeds up the process. Though I still think it should be limited to what the bots themselves can detect and determine, not what a player can deduce.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#12 » 22 Jun 2017, 21:10

harthag wrote:Though I still think it should be limited to what the bots themselves can detect and determine, not what a player can deduce.

Even if you wanted to say this, the bots can detect virtually everything anyways. The only things the bot can't differentiate is the difference between moving towards a resource and grabbing it (which makes no difference as far as a line is concerned), and idle vs tagging (and I already said plenty of times why we shouldn't be overally fearful of the information getting out because you still would need to decipher why the tag was even laid in the first place).
Honestly, any claims that anything that is already clearly visible to us currently (without seeing the enemy's AIs themselves or brain behind it) can be too much info to the enemy is kinda silly especially since most of the requests that I hear here, on itch, on telegram, on discord, or between my friends who haven't even really played online at all, has all been trying to close the information gap to the bots to be around the level of what we can detect outside the game, and most of this information tells basically nothing about the enemy and would probably take hours to fully decode

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#13 » 22 Jun 2017, 23:26

Random note (that is hopefully a bug): the big thick line for whatever bot you selected doesn't show up for red team in the testing mode

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#14 » 30 Jun 2017, 02:15

Now in alpha 8.8, with the target lines for every bot, everybody's intention, fire strategy and fleeing route are crystal clear. Except tagging, AIs from opponents are almost transparent. Everybody is free to imitate whoever in the game.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#15 » 30 Jun 2017, 02:37

Yeah, you really should hide the target lines of the opponents. Another reason is that those information are available to players, but not players' bots. Before you add new functions (such as counting and directional sense, second order logic) to help the bots comprehend these information better, these information just make the players desperate because they get more direct feelings that implementing something obvious is impossible. So they help nothing in the analysis of games except imitating their opponents.

It is true that these information are already there for experience player even not shown, but these players also know what can be implement and what cannot be implemented so that not fell into frustration. But showing these lines makes new player realize soon that they don't know where the bullets are from, how many of them are attacking, or who is the closest enemy aiming at. In a word, the lines lead to some problems without solutions.

I also hope that there is a button to control on/off of target lines. They are not real things like bullets.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#16 » 30 Jun 2017, 06:39

Castlevania wrote:Now in alpha 8.8, with the target lines for every bot, everybody's intention, fire strategy and fleeing route are crystal clear. Except tagging, AIs from opponents are almost transparent. Everybody is free to imitate whoever in the game.

I could give paragraphs on why I disagree with this statement, but I will keep it simple: I copied conscious's pushbot tactic in 5.2 from 1 video and 1 photo and copied it a second time when he made a small advancement in the tactic after one match of seeing him do it, and this was while I was still trying to how to do everything; tct has confirmed that the reason he grew so fast in elo was because he studied the matches of top level players; kanishka has twice claimed to copy my Mind Game AI from scratch (and has shown videos of it playing the same game against him); and I know that at least I have several times watched certain ticks one by one to see exactly what each bot was doing. Plus, I could give you my entire assault AI and I doubt that most of it would be super clear by just watching some lines (nor would it really matter to be honest)
Castlevania wrote:Yeah, you really should hide the target lines of the opponents. Another reason is that those information are available to players, but not players' bots. Before you add new functions (such as counting and directional sense, second order logic) to help the bots comprehend these information better, these information just make the players desperate because they get more direct feelings that implementing something obvious is impossible. So they help nothing in the analysis of games except imitating their opponents.

It is true that these information are already there for experience player even not shown, but these players also know what can be implement and what cannot be implemented so that not fell into frustration. But showing these lines makes new player realize soon that they don't know where the bullets are from, how many of them are attacking, or who is the closest enemy aiming at. In a word, the lines lead to some problems without solutions.

"So let's just make it so new players can't see the information that the experienced players have studied for months and months." This doesn't make too much sense to me. They don't show the information that is inaccessible, and like you said, most of the experienced players knows how to use this information for information we can solve. If anything, the lines shows debug information to help the players understand more accurately what is going on. Yes, there are these "problems with solutions" that becomes easier to notice, but talking to my friends about the game or talking to any new player, and it isn't like the fact that these problems are invisible to them. Not only that, but I'd rather making it easier for a strong player to emerge than to be scared that we would scare players away from situations they can't solve (which already happens)

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#17 » 30 Jun 2017, 07:13

1. So, if players already imitated each other quickly in the past, the auxiliary information would make this process even easier. It is not good for the player base if the cost of imitating an existing tactics from others is cheaper than thinking up a new one by their own. Do you like to play against everyone TcT-alike? To be honest, in current top 20, I may only recognize Ritter, Miojo, while all the others look alike to some extent.

2. Sorry, maybe I didn't make the second point clear. I mean, the lines from opponents provide information beyond comprehensions of bots and would draw players' attention to something they cannot solve. This should be taken into consideration of the graphical element designing.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#18 » 30 Jun 2017, 08:04

Castlevania wrote:1. So, if players already imitated each other quickly in the past, the auxiliary information would make this process even easier. It is not good for the player base if the cost of imitating an existing tactics from others is cheaper than thinking up a new one by their own. Do you like to play against everyone TcT-alike? To be honest, in current top 20, I may only recognize Ritter, Miojo, while all the others look alike to some extent.

But it is not cheaper, nor easier to use an AI you don't understand. Not only that, but from here to telegram, there are tons of screenshots of AI to the point that if someone really wanted to copy a high level AI, they would already be able to. Not only that, but even with the lines, please tell me what your approach would be to correctly copy a 150+ node AI just on observation without overfitting to 1 or 2 games
Castlevania wrote:2. Sorry, maybe I didn't make the second point clear. I mean, the lines from opponents provide information beyond comprehensions of bots and would draw players' attention to something they cannot solve. This should be taken into consideration of the graphical element designing.

But my point is that even without the lines this information on impossible to solve situations is most of the time as clear as it could possibly be, plus most of this information that we can't solve for is 100% necessary for the information we can solve for. Also, there isn't a big arrow saying "You can't drop this, try something else", so I see how the lines somehow draws attention to the information that can't be solved for any more than what was previously questioned, especially when you have bots shooting and grabbing resources all over the place. Once again, if they even noticed thus in the first place, if would probably be a bigger help to them than it would be a frustration.

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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#19 » 30 Jun 2017, 12:30

Castlevania wrote:1. So, if players already imitated each other quickly in the past, the auxiliary information would make this process even easier.


No. Nullpointer even shared 4 ais in alpha 5.2 on this forum and a lot of people thought that now there would be nullpointer copies. It did not happen. People are lazy. It is easier to come up with your ideas rather than copy.

TcT shared the glitch to collect resources on this forum. Aside from you, tortuga, kanishka no one used it.

It is different to be inspired from this or that.

One thing is to see a bot doing something, another is to get the behaviour. Although some new lines where quite difficult to detect before, like "this and this and this bot are moving towards my base", it is not so easy to make a web to detect this in the debugger subtree.

I think it makes the process of understand the enemy ai easier, but still it is a long way before replicating every subtle detail.

Personally: I would never show enemy actions, it takes away a bit of fun and awe when the enemy destroyes me and I have no clue.
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Re: Target Lines on Red Team

Post#20 » 01 Jul 2017, 01:11

pier4r wrote:
Castlevania wrote:1. So, if players already imitated each other quickly in the past, the auxiliary information would make this process even easier.


No. Nullpointer even shared 4 ais in alpha 5.2 on this forum and a lot of people thought that now there would be nullpointer copies. It did not happen. People are lazy. It is easier to come up with your ideas rather than copy.

TcT shared the glitch to collect resources on this forum. Aside from you, tortuga, kanishka no one used it.


Copying something from community is not as convenient and reliable as copying from the opponent who just defeat you. I firstly saw the shotgun dribbling from a match which I didn't remember. It had nothing to do with TcT and I didn't know it is a glitch. I'm also inspired by Ritter's aggressive sniper and many other things. However, without lines, copying is fragmentary and fuzzy. Now it is able to copy everything except tagging with only a little bit patience. I swear that I would have already copied Wozza's fire control system if I had seen those lines at the time.

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