Complexity

ConsciouS-0nE
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Complexity

Post#1 » 14 Jan 2017, 11:30

As game's Complexity increases
In my point of view, is so my satisfaction increases playing it.(the games soul)

"Elites getting more elite, makes the multiplayer really hot",
But for the player that 'cannot'
Is it fair?

Top players;
-Advantaged ones(knows stuff)
-tought onesself how to do things
-naturally awesome
-hardwork

But the thing on other players are;
-lacking of know how(tutorials)
-whaaaaat?!?
Moslty;
-for kids learning
-students
-i dunno what im doing people


Id suggest to cut/upgrade the game tutorials 'sooner or later' onto 'phases' in terms of the games that it can go to depths.

Phase one;
Game starter tutorials
-the totorials we have right now.

Phase two;
Intermediate tutorials
-tutorials for stuff as the game gets deeper.
*tagging
*etc
Or phase two will include
"THE QUICK "NODE" TEST map"
The one used for this is usually 'teamplay' but,
- a map that has 1vs1 red/white that doest save anything but quickly add programs and test it
or optional options;
E.g 'add entities'
-modding but just on that map so/and it shouldn't affect any aspect of the current game
(Already i my self can have a lot of fun just by this)
Or as simple as a "sandboxed map" which can be used for deeper exploration.

Phase three; "optional"
Advance tutorials
-just 'text'etc
ke a dictionary for everything in the game.(bulks information bout the game)

but lets consider how much our beloved dev hates to create tutorials ;) so maybe sooner or never.
So is there anything we can do?


Implement other stuff they can do rather than just multiplayer,
So there is already;
-solo missions
'But'.



///
So the game is inevitable for not just geeks :ugeek: ;) but other stereotypes too.



Disclaimer;
Things here are just
-suggestion
-opinion
-insights
-thoughts
-etc.
As always
It 'may' but it shouldn't affect the dev in any way on his priorities about 'his' game. Thnx
(Because where asking too much? Kinda.. And hes just one BUT godspeed <3 :* )
Last edited by ConsciouS-0nE on 14 Jan 2017, 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: Complexity

Post#2 » 14 Jan 2017, 12:00

We had something like this on telegram. Thanks for bringing it out.

So the game is awesome. Gfx is awesome. Nevertheless it is likely that players would find the Multiplayer boring of the user base would be small. Second problem, whatever the game, if it starts to disappoint it is difficult to recover. See Pokémon go. Who has installed it won't do it again soon even if it is improving.

After a discussion in the chat (telegram) I think that one of the factors that keep away players from playing is the learning curve. For whom likes logic or programming or should not be a problem, but nevertheless many could see the amount of settings available in the current game as too much to learn.

In my opinion a strong help can come from the missions and from the documentation (no documentation, no chances than a user can use the product).

Some ideas:
- every X will mission the player should win some Multiplayer games to unlock the next missions.
- a mission should have the normal version, that one won unlock the next stage, and an hard mode. The hard mode is the same mission containing a stronger ai. Gfx could collect those Ais for example from the last ai win of the best player in League 2 on that map before every release (I know some maps won't be affected, but it is a start). Therefore the hard mode will foster the player to unlock classes in Multiplayer.
- the player should have some working examples of Ais using many options, so to study them. Since in absence of documentation the best is using the debugger to understand things. Maybe even little Ais that shows how things works, like tagging and so on on teamplay.
- whom plays since day 1 learned all the changes slowly, a new player is overwhelmed by the settings that could be too much. So either explaining things slowly with at good missions and examples, or disabling options that are enabled with progression of the missions unless one wants to skip the process.
Last edited by pier4r on 14 Jan 2017, 12:36, edited 1 time in total.
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NullPointer
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Re: Complexity

Post#3 » 14 Jan 2017, 12:14

I think that not all filters and tags should be available from day 1.

League 1 - keep it Alpha 4 style, no Tags, no clever filters, no other classes
League 2 - unlock Shotgun and enable bot tags
League 3 - unlock Machinegun and enable team tags
League 4 - unlock Sniper and Alpha 7 filters

The Alpha 7 filters are way too OP, but make the game very complex too, that's why I think it should be unlocked only in League 4. I'm not only beating my 6.1.3 AI, I'm obliterating it.

pier4r
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Re: Complexity

Post#4 » 14 Jan 2017, 12:38

Or like nullpointer says but if done in Multiplayer it may be a maintenance problem every time to check what is available in which league.
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NullPointer
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Re: Complexity

Post#5 » 14 Jan 2017, 13:16

Can you be downgraded again?

pier4r
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Re: Complexity

Post#6 » 14 Jan 2017, 13:47

Yes
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NullPointer
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Re: Complexity

Post#7 » 14 Jan 2017, 13:59

Does this happen as soon as you fall below the threshold?

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GFX47
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Re: Complexity

Post#8 » 14 Jan 2017, 14:32

NullPointer wrote:Does this happen as soon as you fall below the threshold?


Yes.

League 1: promotion above 1100 points, no demotion
League 2: promotion above 1200 points, demotion below 1000 points
League 3: promotion above 1300 points, demotion below 1100 points
League 4: no promotion , demotion below 1200 points

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NullPointer
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Re: Complexity

Post#9 » 14 Jan 2017, 14:35

Cool, I was wondering if you could float between leagues after each match if you're close to the threshold, but this 100 points tolerance avoids that.

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GFX47
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Re: Complexity

Post#10 » 14 Jan 2017, 14:42

I'm aware of the increasing complexity problem and have plans for it.
Plans that are very close to what you guys are proposing by the way, which conforts me :)

The goal of the last updates was to improve the system so my hardcore players (you <3) could have more tools to implement unique strategies and see if the competition would become more interesting.
After all, that's the core of the game we are testing here.

After Alpha 7, I'll re-focus on tutorials and player progression.
I'll showcase the game at the Indie Prize Berlin conference in 3 weeks. It will be a great opportunity to test my pitch and playtest the new flow.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Complexity

Post#11 » 14 Jan 2017, 14:51

Good to hear, best of luck gfx! <3
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: Complexity

Post#12 » 14 Jan 2017, 16:17

NullPointer wrote:Cool, I was wondering if you could float between leagues after each match if you're close to the threshold, but this 100 points tolerance avoids that.


We discussed in the past. It is quite nice.
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Re: Complexity

Post#13 » 14 Jan 2017, 16:21

GFX47 wrote:I

After Alpha 7, I'll re-focus on tutorials and player progression.
I'll showcase the game at the Indie Prize Berlin conference in 3 weeks. It will be a great opportunity to test my pitch and playtest the new flow.


Nice in Berlin!
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Frontrider
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Re: Complexity

Post#14 » 15 Jan 2017, 22:31

Yeah. I like logical stuff, but I can't seem to get past certain things.
The ai ui is definietly not use friendly. I can not "zoom out". I must see every single program and routine at the same time. Becomes a bit too mutch. Doesn't increases complexity, but has a similar effect.
As things get more and more complex, it just puts an extra unpleasant weight.

Ability to sort programs in a folder structure? (With a search field?)
I was thinking tabs first but, that would have issues.

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Kanishka
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Re: Complexity

Post#15 » 16 Jan 2017, 04:31

Well, if your AIs are cluttered, try sorting different areas into Sub-Trees.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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GFX47
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Re: Complexity

Post#16 » 16 Jan 2017, 08:27

You can zoom in and out in the AI editor using the mouse wheel or pinching on Android.

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Kanishka
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Re: Complexity

Post#17 » 16 Jan 2017, 08:30

No... He probably means that when he zooms out, he can't see the Nodes properly... So that's not an option.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: Complexity

Post#18 » 16 Jan 2017, 08:31

Oh OK

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Complexity

Post#19 » 16 Jan 2017, 18:08

You can also increase the debbuger size eating the whole screen, i do that every time.

*coughonlyifthedebbugerfadeseverytimeitssizsincreasessoicanseethebotsbattlingonthebackgroundmuchmore*coughcough
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

Hamster
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Re: Complexity

Post#20 » 18 Jan 2017, 17:20

didn't see this thread, lol.

I'll repost what I said in the 7.5 test build thread:

....

Had a quick play around on 7.5

Personally, I'm getting a bit concerned with "complexity creep". As more and more tags, filters, etc get added the game is getting harder to understand.

new player content (e.g tutorials and the like) will probably help with all this. But with that I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the options and I've played the game for about 50hrs now and I don't completely suck at the game, either (I usually float between #30-70 in league 4).

If I want to compete with the very best I have to learn how to use tags/filter, I have to write separate Ai's for a bunch of the maps, and on top of this I should probably give the Sniper a different protocol then say an Assault bot.

My current main AI is already like 100+ nodes (including subtrees) so yeah, if I wanna do all of the above that's maybe another 50+ nodes of different bits of code to write and then maintain.

I guess I just feel overwhelmed by all the new stuff.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'd like the game to be a bit simpler.

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