AI size limits

AI size limits?

Yes, I think it's a good idea
11
42%
Why not, I don't really care
1
4%
No, I don't like this idea (please detail why)
14
54%
 
Total votes: 26

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Revenge
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Re: AI size limits

Post#41 » 12 Nov 2017, 16:02

pier4r wrote: Because the game is far from being alpha in my opinion. Alpha games are normally unplayable.
GFX47 wrote:It's still tagged as alpha because there's a lot of missing features, that's the reason.

No cross-device support, replay system needs to be streamlined, ui speed needs update, training mode rework(in progress), achievements, multiplayer notifications, map editor, survival mode, friends list, and in-app purchases for making the game sustainable. Those are some of the major reasons why the game is still in alpha

mcompany
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Re: AI size limits

Post#42 » 12 Nov 2017, 18:27

Revenge wrote:
pier4r wrote: Because the game is far from being alpha in my opinion. Alpha games are normally unplayable.
GFX47 wrote:It's still tagged as alpha because there's a lot of missing features, that's the reason.

No cross-device support, replay system needs to be streamlined, ui speed needs update, training mode rework(in progress), achievements, multiplayer notifications, map editor, survival mode, friends list, and in-app purchases for making the game sustainable. Those are some of the major reasons why the game is still in alpha

Umm... cross device support technically exists it is just a "work in progress", ui speed isn't a lack of a feature and doesn't belong in this list, notifications are a meh thing and shouldn't determine the alpha tag (maybe a beta tag would be more fitting), a friends list makes little sense imo for this game, and for in-app purchases, while I can agree with them being in the game to make it generate money, that has (or at least should have) the least to do with its alpha status than literally anything else

I'm not against saying this game is still in alpha, but that alone doesn't quite give me something agreeable

ElvenMonk
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Re: AI size limits

Post#43 » 21 Apr 2018, 19:45

Personally I would be really interested in some very limited mode (say single AI with up to 20 nodes). Efficient means short.

sollniss
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Re: AI size limits

Post#44 » 22 Apr 2018, 17:51

No it doesn't. Short means simple. Simple means dumb.

Xenori
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Re: AI size limits

Post#45 » 11 May 2018, 03:56

Just to give my opinion i would enjoy having ai size limit. But only as an extra leauge. So a) everything stays equal and as unranked and ranked there will be an ai size limit career mode or no limits. And then i would also enjoy different sizes. So one sub 100 one sub 50 another sub10 etc. Would be really great
But if you want to add a total ai size limit (so no exceptions) than at least let it be like sub 500 nodes.

masterplayer
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Re: AI size limits

Post#46 » 17 May 2018, 14:52

GFX47 wrote:[...] more and more players are giving me the feedback that [...] they either feel powerless when facing AIs that are there for a while and handle much more cases than theirs or just don't feel like they are willing to spend enough time refining it to reach that level of hardly maintainable complexity.

Currently, Gladiabots is mainly played by hardcore gamers. With the Skin-Update in Alpha13, GFX probably wants to encourage casual gamers. IMO this won't work, until AI size limits "protect" them from the hardcore gamers with huge AIs. If there was a size limit, they wouldn't give up as fast as they are doing now. (look at all the ghosts in silver ...)

pier4r wrote:10 nodes max
25 nodes max
50 nodes max
100 nodes max
unlimited

If you want to encourage casual gamers, you won't need 50 or 100 nodes max. I suggest only three gamemodes: 10, 25 and infinity. (Otherwise, there wouldn't be enough players in each mode and too many leaderboards.)

Fun fact: My generic AI has got less than 50 nodes and floats above 2000 Elo :D
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

ElvenMonk
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Re: AI size limits

Post#47 » 19 May 2018, 17:43

masterplayer wrote:Fun fact: My generic AI has got less than 50 nodes and floats above 2000 Elo :D


Incredible! I was thinking about genetic AI implementation for bots, but considered it to be inefficient and too difficult to implement.
Could you share some details, perhaps, in separate thread?

pier4r
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Re: AI size limits

Post#48 » 19 May 2018, 20:52

Actually the most updated Ghost of masterplayer is around 1790 not 2000+.

19.5.2018, 20:23:51 967061 mumpsimus (2162 +2) masterplayer4000 (1799)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Re: AI size limits

Post#49 » 23 May 2018, 05:35

masterplayer wrote:Fun fact: My generic AI has got less than 50 nodes and floats above 2000 Elo :D

My main ai has 49 Nodes, and is almost at 1600 Elo. (Almost made master rank in my stream today)

masterplayer
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Re: AI size limits

Post#50 » 24 May 2018, 14:34

pier4r wrote:Actually the most updated Ghost of masterplayer is around 1790 not 2000+.

19.5.2018, 20:23:51 967061 mumpsimus (2162 +2) masterplayer4000 (1799)

I wasn't speaking about my ghosts, I was speaking of myself. However, since I haven't played Gladiabots last week, you probably can't see me on the leaderboard right now.

Please answer to my main message about AI size limits and don't try to expose me because of my side note.

ElvenMonk wrote:Could you share some details, perhaps, in separate thread?

In which thread do you want me to share it?
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

pier4r
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Re: AI size limits

Post#51 » 24 May 2018, 15:23

masterplayer wrote:
Please answer to my main message about AI size limits and don't try to expose me because of my side note.

Touchy. If your boast something, you cannot expect that noone will comment on it. If you don't like possible negative comments, don't write at all. That is a rule of open discussions.

Anyway your ghost is only a bit buggy, so if you play again and fix it, maybe it recovers.
And for 10, 25, infinity I don't find it bad. As long as there is the infinity league, no problems.

ElvenMonk wrote:In which thread do you want me to share it?

Make a thread in the strategies subsection.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ElvenMonk
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Re: AI size limits

Post#52 » 24 May 2018, 16:11

pier4r wrote:
ElvenMonk wrote:In which thread do you want me to share it?

Make a thread in the strategies subsection.


Yes, Please! It would be really appreciated!

Blothorn
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Re: AI size limits

Post#53 » 26 May 2018, 00:12

masterplayer wrote:
pier4r wrote:10 nodes max
25 nodes max
50 nodes max
100 nodes max
unlimited

If you want to encourage casual gamers, you won't need 50 or 100 nodes max. I suggest only three gamemodes: 10, 25 and infinity. (Otherwise, there wouldn't be enough players in each mode and too many leaderboards.)

Fun fact: My generic AI has got less than 50 nodes and floats above 2000 Elo :D


I agree--Gladiabots does not have the active playerbase to overly-fragment leagues.

I am not averse to some sort of size limit/reactivity penalty, but I doubt it will make it much easier on new players--adding cases may be tedious, but it is frequently more straightforward than writing generic conditions that capture nuance. As a week-old player myself, iterating on identifying situations my AI handles badly and adding cases for them has got it to 1650 ELO with clear opportunities for improvement. If I were against a codesize limit and further gains required prioritizing/refactoring, progress would probably be much more difficult.

(Although for specific levels, I would consider 20/50 over 10/25--10 nodes seems quite restrictive, and there is a huge gap between what can be done with 25 and infinite nodes--I would expect 50 to better allow sophisticated AIs while still discouraging combinatorial special cases.

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Re: AI size limits

Post#54 » 26 May 2018, 20:27

50 nodes is a pretty balanced league, with close battles and occasional upset victories. It would definitely be my favorite league to play in if i had to choose a number, as the more experienced players would definitely be there.

masterplayer
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Re: AI size limits

Post#55 » 27 May 2018, 19:50

Blothorn wrote:I am not averse to some sort of size limit/reactivity penalty, but I doubt it will make it much easier on new players--adding cases may be tedious, but it is frequently more straightforward than writing generic conditions that capture nuance.

It won't make it easier for new players, but it could encourage them to focus more on creativity and less on boring iteration. :ugeek:

Blothorn wrote:10 nodes seems quite restrictive, and there is a huge gap between what can be done with 25 and infinite nodes.

I disagree: The 10 nodes limit would be a fun challenge for experienced players and a little stepstone for very new players, who can't imagine programming more than 10 nodes, until they started and get addicted. ;) IMAO there is only a small gap between 25 and infinity, but that's just my personal opinion.
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

ElvenMonk
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Re: AI size limits

Post#56 » 31 May 2018, 21:57

I did some testing, and.. My prediction for 10 nodes - it will be frozen after some time, as the is no much efficient options there. Still good for newcomers practicing.

20 nodes can be interesting and dynamic mode, if combined with additional constraints changing over time.

50 nodes is way enough to get to 2100 ELO nowadays.

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Re: AI size limits

Post#57 » 31 May 2018, 22:14

ElvenMonk wrote:I did some testing, and.. My prediction for 10 nodes - it will be frozen after some time, as the is no much efficient options there. Still good for newcomers practicing.

20 nodes can be interesting and dynamic mode, if combined with additional constraints changing over time.

50 nodes is way enough to get to 2100 ELO nowadays.

I'm considering hosting another Node tournament. Would you be interested in joining it if i made one? :)

ElvenMonk
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Re: AI size limits

Post#58 » 31 May 2018, 22:22

Revenge wrote:I'm considering hosting another Node tournament. Would you be interested in joining it if i made one? :)

Sure thing)

masterplayer
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Re: AI size limits

Post#59 » 01 Jun 2018, 12:43

ElvenMonk wrote:[...]

+1

Could you give an example of constraints?

To conclude, we all agree on two leagues:
20 nodes max and infinity. Any objections?
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

masterplayer
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Re: AI size limits

Post#60 » 01 Jun 2018, 12:56

Look what I found :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1093
:? I apologize for my childish name and my bad English.

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