this one gfx?

ConsciouS-0nE
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 740

this one gfx?

Post#1 » 14 Jun 2017, 19:45

It deserves to be separated to another topic,

https://trello.com/c/JCAY6A55/356-team- ... -meta-game

But gfx has a plan already for this in the trello to use wieght special classes for their use. And said that he will add more classes to the game.
Ex.(inaccurate)

Sniper=4
Mg=3
Sg=3
Aslt=0
More classes=x

A map can have a specific value for special classes.
Lets say
Seven wonders has special class limit at
10
Considering
It has bot limits at 4/4
And DOUBLING A SPECIAL CLASS WOULD penalty +2 on its weight
So you can use
Sniper=4
Sniper=4
+2
Maxed out so
Assault=0
Assault=0
total of 10/10 special limit
4/4bots


Or
1mg=3
1mg=3
+2
Maxed out so
1assault=0
total of 8/10 special limit
4/4 bots

So that doest stop the possibility for
Lets say
Healer bot=7
Leader bot=0
Snp=4
Mg=3
Sg=3
Aslt=4

And a fight with

Healer bot=7
Sg=3
Maxed out
Assault=0
Assault=0
total of 10/10 special limit
4/4bots




Vs a group of
Team with
Sniper=4
Mg=3
Sg=3
Leader bot=0
total of 10/10 special limit
4/4bots
Last edited by ConsciouS-0nE on 14 Jun 2017, 19:51, edited 2 times in total.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

ConsciouS-0nE
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 740

Re: this one gfx?

Post#2 » 14 Jun 2017, 19:47

Got that right?
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

I Robot
Hello World
Hello World
Posts: 7

Re: this one gfx?

Post#3 » 14 Jun 2017, 20:42

Yes and No.

I explain my thoughts.

My proposal can be temporary. Since there is no more classes or Bot customisation yet. (I know it will be implemented sometime in the future.)

And when I said the number of slots, it will depend on factors like bot number, Bot placement in maps.
Each map can have it's own number of slots from 2-4.

Examples : in "Seven Wonders " each player is having 5 bots. For this map each player will have 2 slots for special classes.
So I have 3 Assault and 2 Special

In "Circle of Death" each player is having 9 bots and can have 3 slots.

Something like that I am thinking.

User avatar
GFX47
Dev
Dev
Posts: 2914

Re: this one gfx?

Post#4 » 14 Jun 2017, 23:18

Here's an example:
A map has 5 slots where you can place your bots.
The map has a 4 points budget.
Assault = 1 point, specials = 2 points
You can use 4 assaults or 2 assaults and 1 MG or 1 MG and 1 sniper, etc and place them wherever you want on the slots.

sollniss
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 178

Re: this one gfx?

Post#5 » 14 Jun 2017, 23:36

GFX47 wrote:Here's an example:
A map has 5 slots where you can place your bots.
The map has a 4 points budget.
Assault = 1 point, specials = 2 points
You can use 4 assaults or 2 assaults and 1 MG or 1 MG and 1 sniper, etc and place them wherever you want on the slots.


I would MUCH prefer mirrored teams. Stuff like this is instead going to ruin balance because there is always one dominant strategy that everyone will eventually use. Or everyone will play random stuff and the game becomes just a matter of luck like it is now.

In your example I'm pretty sure 4 Assaults is going to beat everything else. Very bad system in my opinion.

Make both teams have the same bots in the same position (ABCD vs ABCD) or mirror the the enemy team (ABCD vs DCBA) this is the fairest approach possible, everything else comes down to luck ("oh my sniper spawned opposite of the enmy shotgun and got instagibbed, while my shotgun was opposite of the enemy mg, bad luck").

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: this one gfx?

Post#6 » 14 Jun 2017, 23:54

Well there is surely luck but until a certain point. On the long run calling always luck is an excuse.

But I do like the combo: slots + points + mirrored set-up. Oh even better, we don't even need a random generator. Let the player creating the match decide over the bot formation that then is mirrored to the player joining the match. So it is like having the home advantage that is lost when a player ends picking a match already created. So only those with good generic ai will survive since on average they do not not have control on their formation.

In the future could be that even with a fixed pool of maps the player creating the match can position the bots, so there are different starting positions from map to map (and chooses the classes), and this is mirrored too the player joining the match. So there is not need of random generation, the players would do all, the server has just told mirror the positions.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 178

Re: this one gfx?

Post#7 » 15 Jun 2017, 00:42

pier4r wrote:Well there is surely luck but until a certain point. On the long run calling always luck is an excuse.


When I lose with setup 1 but win with setup 2 against the same AI, I call it luck. I didn't lose because my bot was weaker, I lost because I got a bad setup-matchup.

User avatar
GFX47
Dev
Dev
Posts: 2914

Re: this one gfx?

Post#8 » 15 Jun 2017, 00:49

Or it may mean that your AI is better in the first situation but weaker in the second one.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: this one gfx?

Post#9 » 15 Jun 2017, 00:53

sollniss wrote:
When I lose with setup 1 but win with setup 2 against the same AI, I call it luck. I didn't lose because my bot was weaker, I lost because I got a bad setup-matchup.

Well yes, but the same is valid for the opponent, he lost to you due to bad luck,not because your AI is better.

But this over a long series of matches should show up who wins a bit more between two players (direct fights) , and that guy is the strongest one.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 178

Re: this one gfx?

Post#10 » 15 Jun 2017, 01:05

Actually this gives me an idea:

Why not do rematches? Every player can set their setup, but when you play a match, you also have to play a rematch with positions swapped (aka you play with the enemy setup).

This would be just as fair as a mirror (because it technically is) and it would allow for free setup customizations and a lot of cheese.

TheKidPunisher
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 565

Re: this one gfx?

Post#11 » 15 Jun 2017, 07:03

sollniss wrote:
pier4r wrote:Well there is surely luck but until a certain point. On the long run calling always luck is an excuse.


When I lose with setup 1 but win with setup 2 against the same AI, I call it luck. I didn't lose because my bot was weaker, I lost because I got a bad setup-matchup.


For me if you win a setup and lose in another setup, your AI is not so good. That not about luck at all.

But i agree with you that complete all slot (by using more assault) will be the strongest strat. Due to the fact that the ennemy will be out number if he didnt complete slot too...

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: this one gfx?

Post#12 » 15 Jun 2017, 09:38

sollniss wrote:Actually this gives me an idea:

Why not do rematches? Every player can set their setup, but when you play a match, you also have to play a rematch with positions swapped (aka you play with the enemy setup).

This would be just as fair as a mirror (because it technically is) and it would allow for free setup customizations and a lot of cheese.


Yes this is also a point. Every match spawn two matches. Why not.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

mcompany
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 872

Re: this one gfx?

Post#13 » 15 Jun 2017, 09:40

First off, I think that under a "assault 1 point, everything else 2 points" format assaults easily are much stronger than any other tactic. That said, I think it is probably for the best to allow both players full control over their starting position so that there is at least some manner of strategy that could be made beforehand rather than being forced to accept what you get even if it isn't something that your bots can reasonably do. As far as mirrored setups, I think that shouldn't be enforced as it is way too limiting on the players AIs imo and once again, the player should get some control of how the start (if not any other reason) to be able to create tactics ahead of time.
As for the whole luck factor everyone keeps complaining, I believe it is indeed a thing that can in some cases play a major role, but it can't be called on everything and the luck is mostly due to how little information the bots get and how bad tagging is

mcompany
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 872

Re: this one gfx?

Post#14 » 15 Jun 2017, 09:41

pier4r wrote:
sollniss wrote:Actually this gives me an idea:

Why not do rematches? Every player can set their setup, but when you play a match, you also have to play a rematch with positions swapped (aka you play with the enemy setup).

This would be just as fair as a mirror (because it technically is) and it would allow for free setup customizations and a lot of cheese.


Yes this is also a point. Every match spawn two matches. Why not.

I'd rather not unless there was some official tournament, and even then, that might be better off done through private matches

User avatar
GFX47
Dev
Dev
Posts: 2914

Re: this one gfx?

Post#15 » 15 Jun 2017, 10:12

1 for assault and 2 for specials was just an example XD

ConsciouS-0nE
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 740

Re: this one gfx?

Post#16 » 15 Jun 2017, 10:41

GFX47 wrote:1 for assault and 2 for specials was just an example XD



Yes, you were its kinda unbalanced. Thats the first thing I did so I corrected myself.

1for assault 2for special is not a good example

You said the limit is 4 for special classes
That means


Example at seven wonders
The Special limit is 4


Sniper=2
Mg=2
Maxed out right here, special limit 4/4
Sg=2
Assault=1 a total of 7/4
(You put value to assault)
Considered the bot count limit is 4/4


So I can say now that, my example can be accurate?
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

User avatar
GFX47
Dev
Dev
Posts: 2914

Re: this one gfx?

Post#17 » 15 Jun 2017, 10:48

The limit is for the whole team, not just specials.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: this one gfx?

Post#18 » 15 Jun 2017, 11:09

If gfx has the values of how bot behaved in a game (like damage received, given, resource taken, distance covered, shots fired, etc..) with a bit of data mining and some metrics we can get the relative value of bots.

Eyeballing I would say:

Assault 1000 (better to have large numbers to be granular)
If I have an assault and an Mg, how many assaults do I need to overpower this team? I'll say 3. So 2 as are better than one Mg, but one Mg is better than one as. Averaging: 1500. Plus having speed in bringing resources around. 1700
Mg 1700
Sg is quite crucial, it is almost as valuable as a sniper
Sg 2000
Sniper 2500

So for syp one gets the standard formation points : 1 sn, 1 Mg, 1sg, 2 as, 8200 points and then one can decide how to spend them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ConsciouS-0nE
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 740

Re: this one gfx?

Post#19 » 15 Jun 2017, 11:24

Yeah
The X-4 limit to al botclass is odd.
That cant apply the our current bot system rn

Because if the value
Is 4
And
Special is 2
That means I can only bring 2 special classes on the arena without addition cuz assault has a value.
Thats 2/4 bots available,
When we can have 4/4 with the current system and bring 3/4 special classes.

I was just saying that the example is wrong.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

Captain Spock (Castlevania)
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 177

Re: this one gfx?

Post#20 » 15 Jun 2017, 15:52

I like the idea of spawn slots. A commander should have the right to decide the initial shape of his army.

As to the budget system, one thing to know is that the least common multiple of prices should be small so that it is easy to calculate. A good example is like Assault=2, Specials=3. Currently, I personally believe that only machinegun is lower than this expected price. But gfx want to change its stat, doesn't he?

Return to “Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest