MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

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Echo Blue
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MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#1 » 23 Jan 2017, 20:39

So in Testing Meeting Point I gave all the AI's the same AI and ran it. White Side always wins. It's not a Random Bug because all the movement's are the same every run. What causes this?

sethcohn
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#2 » 23 Jan 2017, 20:42

Your AI does something that gives white a extra bump?

Most of my AI will tie themselves... killing each other at the same time.

pier4r
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#3 » 23 Jan 2017, 20:45

Nullpointer knows more about this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#4 » 23 Jan 2017, 20:50

This is my best guess: Unity collider favours one side over the other when you have a perfectly alligned collision. So if you have 2 bots walking in the exact same straight line (which happens in Meeting Point) and the one in the front stops, the one in the front will eventually be pushed out of the way to the right if I remember correctly.

On one side, pushing to the right means away from the resource, on the other, close to the resources. Everything from that point forward will be different.

Tralalo
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#5 » 23 Jan 2017, 21:21

There is definitely something going on; If I test my AI on Split Team (with the exact same setup on both sides), white wins 5 to 0..

pier4r
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#6 » 23 Jan 2017, 21:29

If nullpointer is correct, one can say that with a micro fluctuation on positions!!! One Ai just destroy the other, that is itself. Imagine how subtle is this game.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#7 » 23 Jan 2017, 21:43

I think that's what is happening. At some point during the bot's pushing each other out of the way, a deviation occurs which causes the match to tilt in favor of one side. It's not due to a bug or RNG, but by the Unity Collision engine itself.

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#8 » 23 Jan 2017, 22:11

Echo Blue wrote:At some point during the bot's pushing each other out of the way, a deviation occurs which causes the match to tilt in favor of one side.


That's it, butterfly effect :lol:

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#9 » 25 Jan 2017, 10:10

NullPointer wrote:This is my best guess: Unity collider favours one side over the other when you have a perfectly alligned collision. So if you have 2 bots walking in the exact same straight line (which happens in Meeting Point) and the one in the front stops, the one in the front will eventually be pushed out of the way to the right if I remember correctly.


I don't use Unity collider because I handle the whole simulation in my code, collisions included.
In case of a collision between bots that have parallel move directions: they get around the other one by the left.
It's indeed a problem in maps using central symmetry.
I need to find a better solution.

NullPointer wrote:That's it, butterfly effect :lol:


That's indeed a good example ^^

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#10 » 25 Jan 2017, 11:08

GFX47 wrote:I don't use Unity collider because I handle the whole simulation in my code, collisions included.
In case of a collision between bots that have parallel move directions: they get around the other one by the left.
It's indeed a problem in maps using central symmetry.
I need to find a better solution.


Must have been a lot of work to do it in your code, very well done. It makes sense of course, I always imagined that the engine calculated everything beforehand since I could see the replays 1 second after someone commits a game.

My suggestion for this problem: get around by the left on the Red site and by the right on the Blue side, this should make it even and is the simplest solution possible I guess.
Last edited by NullPointer on 25 Jan 2017, 11:51, edited 2 times in total.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#11 » 25 Jan 2017, 11:31

Mr.nulls solution is good

if not,
Remove meeting point from multiplayers.

If blue has the advantage.(is it the blue or red? Always blue in players pers)
P-1blue/weaker
P-2red/stronger
+ team advantages given
P-2 winning chance 49% from 80+%

P-1blue/stronger
P-2red/weaker
+team advantage given
P-1 winning chance 90%+

P-1blue/match
P-2red/match
+team advantage given
P-1 winning chance 51%


Bring back mighty starving?
:00000
Or just other map or just remove one at all.


But i can show more evidence about
Not drawing same ais map.
My seven wonders, I debunked this
My split team, still finding the reason.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#12 » 25 Jan 2017, 13:16

GFX47 wrote:
NullPointer wrote:This is my best guess: Unity collider favours one side over the other when you have a perfectly alligned collision. So if you have 2 bots walking in the exact same straight line (which happens in Meeting Point) and the one in the front stops, the one in the front will eventually be pushed out of the way to the right if I remember correctly.


I don't use Unity collider because I handle the whole simulation in my code, collisions included.
In case of a collision between bots that have parallel move directions: they get around the other one by the left.

Woah that's a lot of work
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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GFX47
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#13 » 25 Jan 2017, 14:15

Unity's physics engine is actually non deterministic, that's why I had to do it my self.
But honestly, the collision system I implemented is pretty simple (and flawed as you can see ^^).

NullPointer wrote:My suggestion for this problem: get around by the left on the Red site and by the right on the Blue side, this should make it even and is the simplest solution possible I guess.


I guess it could work.
I'll try that.

sethcohn
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#14 » 25 Jan 2017, 15:10

That assumes perfect symmetry of all boards... which isn't true on kingmaker (the dual rows on one side, not 3 to the left, 3 to the right) for example... You would still see differentiation of the teams.

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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#15 » 25 Jan 2017, 15:43

True :/
You see? No easy solution :P

sethcohn
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#16 » 25 Jan 2017, 15:58

You should still do the left right fix... it would still solve the problem of symmetric maps where it's possible the AI could win as one side and lose on the other, against the same competition.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#17 » 27 Jan 2017, 11:07

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:Remove meeting point from multiplayers

If blue has the advantage.(blue or red? Always blue in players perspective)
P-1blue/ weaker player
Vs
P-2red/stronger player
+ team advantages given
Result
P-2 winning chance decreased to 51% from 80+%

P-1blue/stronger player
Vs
P-2red/weaker player
+team advantage given
Result
P-1 winning chance 90%+

P-1blue/equal player
Vs
P-2red/equal player
+team advantage given
Result
P-1 winning chance 51%



Ive got an idea,
To further prove this
Get all meeting point matches
And see all match result.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#18 » 27 Jan 2017, 11:49

Eh it is not so easy.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#19 » 27 Jan 2017, 13:34

I mean not everything, thats alot of meeting point games.

Probably just recent 100 from a version X.

Because as always been discussed,
Meeting point's gameplay can hugely vary from teams.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: MP: Both Teams, Same AI, One Wins?

Post#20 » 27 Jan 2017, 16:29

Still it is not that easy. You need to interpolate with the win ratio between every couple of players. I can tell you on meeting point I lost 3 times, one by mistake, in alpha 7.8. And I played maybe 50 times, the other times the opponent was just better, whatever the side.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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