EI Campagne AI

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Den
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EI Campagne AI

Post#1 » 30 Aug 2018, 14:21

It is possible at some point to see the AI of the enemi in the campagne ?

I realy hope to see it as an "this is the AI taht beat you". It will realy help to work on it's own AI and understanding why you loose this match or this particular maps.

I can see some players that will also just copy/past them but... If every-one can...

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Hairy Phil
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#2 » 30 Aug 2018, 14:32

It certainly is not necessary to view the campaign AI to defeat it, so you're just asking for the game to be made easier. But then what happens when you go against human players, whose AIs are all better than the campaign ones? You aren't allowed to see their AIs, so you have to learn to defeat them using observation and strategy. You may as well start practising that on the campaign.

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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#3 » 30 Aug 2018, 15:34

it's not a question about defeating the AI, but about understand why you loose at this moment or on this move.

Yeah, i can see i am not gather enought ressources or the EI have more field occupation, but why ? I don't fucking know.
Seeing the shit can help to compare and understand.

You never have trully 2 exact same matchs against human player (or you can't re-doing it again and again) so loosing on one game is not... closing the game like loosing on the campagne.

On top of that, when it's your first step in the machine thinking and informatique stuff, it's help a lot to see how other do, play arround and so on.

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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#4 » 30 Aug 2018, 17:08

Actually, it can help a lot of people to understand the game better. I'm afraid it will be difficult to do for existing campaign levels, but totally achievable as a new game mode.

pier4r
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#5 » 31 Aug 2018, 14:36

I do agree with Hairy here. The fun of the game is not to copy. Rather to crack a pattern and say "ah, my enemy is doing this little trick all the time." and then decide to find a counter or to copy the behavior.

If one can just see the code, one gets lazier. I mean gladiabots in the past had not even the lines on the floor or the actions of the enemy bots shown. There are plenty of information already.

And against people there are private matches.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Den
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#6 » 31 Aug 2018, 18:35

Copying is not the question. And for "cracking" the pattern you must to understand it.

And i generaly don't if i can't see it.
If it's borring you, just don't look ? I mean i'm not asking that the AI tree was in big flashy square, just that if you want, you can watch it.

Yeah, my enemy is doing this trick, i can see it, but i can't translate it in the game language... So i can do nothing against it. And i'm stuck.
And playing less.

Yeah, so much fun !

Beside, Hairy say it himself: the AI is not so strong for the final carrer's ladder tiers so, it's not like it's change something isn't ?

Even if it's on the forum, in one topic. Just for see it and try to learn with it, not only against.

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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#7 » 31 Aug 2018, 22:48

Campaign AIs come from career players (except chapter 1). Some of them are very complex even in first chapters. I'm not sure it would really help.
Also, the game shouldn't be seen as a puzzle game, there's an infinite number of solutions to each level. Copying your opponent's behavior is not the solution either. Try to find a counter strategy instead.
I designed the campaign as a training for the career mode (multiplayer) where you will have to adapt to a wide range of strategies. Campaign allows you to do it step by step.

ElvenMonk
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#8 » 01 Sep 2018, 00:07

Don't you understand that most people, especially children are learning by example? If not in campaign there should be some other ways to teach them most common tricks and strategies, as well as best practices of organizing AI. And it should not be limited to ways that take time directly from more experienced players. Currently I don't see say my doughter playing this game, just because it's not educational enough.

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Hairy Phil
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#9 » 01 Sep 2018, 07:11

ElvenMonk wrote:Don't you understand that most people, especially children are learning by example?


Every single existing Gladiabots player has succeeded here without seeing the campaign AI. Yes it would be easier, but it doesn't need to be easier.

ElvenMonk wrote:Currently I don't see say my doughter playing this game, just because it's not educational enough.


That's like saying football is a bad game because it's not educational. It's not trying to be educational. It's a competitive sport. The goal isn't for all players to be good, it's for the smartest players to have a competitive advantage, else everyone would be equal and the outcome of every match would be a draw (which is exactly what happens when you copy and paste AI).
Last edited by Hairy Phil on 01 Sep 2018, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#10 » 01 Sep 2018, 13:19

Den wrote:Copying is not the question. And for "cracking" the pattern you must to understand it.


Sure, and what do you think thousands of players are doing?
There are plenty of hints around in the forum, chat, youtube if you need them. People share without problems.

And surely if you don't see the pattern it becomes frustrating, I understand (it is the same at the top level) but it is no argument to make the game easier. The game is: crack the pattern or find new ones.

Try, if you fail, take a pause, do something else, and then try again in some hours/day/weeks. Eventually it will "click" and you will find a solution.


Maybe instead of asking to see the opponent AI, wouldn't be better to ask "ok I tried X and Y, I am stuck, where or what can I improve?". Then people normally say "send to me a couple of private matches" and then you start to get advice.
Last edited by pier4r on 01 Sep 2018, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#11 » 01 Sep 2018, 13:29

ElvenMonk wrote:Currently I don't see say my doughter playing this game, just because it's not educational enough.

Quite a bad example.

I don't see that as indicator of how educational is a game. How many kids do really take head on hard (for their level) problems? Very a little.

The educational part is not the problem, rather the environment around the problem that is provided by the community.

If you have a book of exercises, you learn next to nothing peeking at the solution to solve the exercise. Rather you try, you fail and you have a study group or a teacher that tells you what to improve.
Same with kids. Kids try, fail, and have parents there to help and try again.

Left alone the majority (I'd say 99% of the people) quit, there is little to say about this.
See the drop rates in whatever hard problem solving environment. Chess, go, coding challenges, math challenges, sport challenges, and so on. Very few persist and those that persist normally participate in communities to share ideas or motivate themselves.

I don't see anything bad if Den asks for help to improve. But copying AI sounds like people that used Pew's simple bot back then.
They copy it. They reached 1700 (the equivalent of 2100 today) then they had to think with their mind, they tried around without understanding and failing, they got frustrated, and they quit saying "well at the end this game sucks".

History of competitive challenges is full of those examples. Mostly the problem is the approach to the challenge, not the challenge.
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Den
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#12 » 01 Sep 2018, 15:11

GFX47 wrote:Campaign AIs come from career players (except chapter 1). Some of them are very complex even in first chapters.


Wow, that's a realy cool thing !

GFX47 wrote:Also, the game shouldn't be seen as a puzzle game, there's an infinite number of solutions to each level. Copying your opponent's behavior is not the solution either. Try to find a counter strategy instead.


That's why i asking to see how it's make at the first place. Copying is not fun... It's almost like winning 'cause you have spend all your nuyens in a random PTW game :cry:

pier4r wrote:If you have a book of exercises, you learn next to nothing peeking at the solution to solve the exercise.


Well, in fact i've learn all i know about orbital mechanics this way.
And now i play KSP with RSS and principia (most realistic way to do it).
For some people, it's working better like this.

It's not easier, i don't want to have the solution served directly.
I just wonder if it's possible to have more tool.

If you (GFX47) say no, it's a no and that's it. It's your game !

But for Hairy and pier4r, it's not because you play a certain way, or you see the game in this way that everyone has to do it. It's not changing a lot of thing for you, but it can make the game more rewarding/interesting for others.

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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#13 » 01 Sep 2018, 17:34

I am seeing the big picture here. There may be players like you that are relatively honest, and check other Ais only to learn. But the bulk of people that I saw using examples wanted the solution served on a plate.

Since there is no way to check how the next player is going to use the information, due to the poor results showed by experience I would say "better not".
At the end the ones that are committed to the game will eventually find their way as thousands of players did.

It is only apparently difficult.
Last edited by pier4r on 01 Sep 2018, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Den
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#14 » 01 Sep 2018, 18:35

Well, you learn nothing by just copying the work of others.

But i'm just wondering if it impact "so much" in the game landers. I already have 3/4 matchs with the EI doing exactly the same thing. Like, at one move...
This already happens in certain form and at certain league (platinium, where i'm stuck with my "natural" level).

I've beat them with a simple timer/score condition.
lazy solution always come with an lazy counter !

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Den
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Re: EI Campagne AI

Post#15 » 02 Sep 2018, 15:34

Beside th main topic, i want to thank all of you to take time to answering at this topic.

It's really nice to have such an cool follow-up !

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