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Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 16:25
by GFX47
Whatever crosses your mind.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 16:33
by mcompany
I got the feeling a while back that the only people who used the tutorial are those that wanted to break it and those that likes the music. Personally, it just feels like an interactive video (and like using tutorials from YouTube, doesn't teach how to do anything outside of copy and pasting the code in the tutorial)

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 16:37
by ConsciouS-0nE
Aye no I mean tutorials are quite off.
Some people ignore them *cough me *cough

I learned more about the game while progressing thru multiplayers rather than the tutorials,
It only teaches the 'grab resource strat' for best score maps and 'attack retreat' for elimination maps, wich is kinda 'right' for the basics of the game.
But then going on the fucosed multiplayers things would go,
'Oh wait he can do that, how do i do that?'
Wichhh is, right forrr 'progressive'.
But when made to one word itll be,

Wichhh isss, just right for me,
Just like reading a book about
'Surviving into the wild'
-teaches how to basics essentials
-youll get surprised you dont know what to do when you saw bigfoot in the forest, well thats for me to find out.(grab the shittiest camera and argue online.)

And then the strongest tactics are from solo missions, you will rarely see people trying to create unusual strategies.
Because most people would base on what they saw and they learned.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 16:43
by NullPointer
I like the current tutorials, afaik they teach enough to play with everything that is unlocked at level 1. They are not short, so I wouldn't make them longer. If they need to be longer, then unlock more tutorial stages after a certain amount of missions are unlocked.

Missions on the other hand is where the real learning will take place (in case you don't jump to pvp directly). They could be random maps with AIs that get smarter each level. You could borrow Assault AIs of different ELO ratings and put in the opponents. The last level could be a 1600 AI.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 17:04
by ConsciouS-0nE

Yes leveling the tutorials,
ConsciouS-0nE wrote:Id suggest to cut/upgrade the game tutorials 'sooner or later' onto 'phases' in terms of the games that it can go to depths.

Phase one;
Game starter tutorials
-the totorials we have right now.

Your making this even better.

Phase three; "optional"
Advance tutorials
-just 'text'etc
ke a dictionary for everything in the game.(bulks information bout the game)

Well done for making an ingame
HELP button.

Phase two;
Intermediate tutorials
-tutorials for stuff as the game gets deeper.

This it can be,
"Hey bruh how can i do this?*shows a replay from multiplayers*"

"Here i can teach you *shows a replay from test arena*

But still i dont know if itll work well, or if it even works at all.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 21:23
by Echo Blue
Maybe add a "Flee" AI to the default starting AI's. (They are indirectly related)

Also, what about including a "putting it all together" segment, perhaps jumping into the first mission w/ the user making an AI including all that was covered from the tutorials (Attack, Flee, & Score in One AI). Let them Keep this AI, too.

When Tutorial is done, direct them to Multiplayer first, Missions second. It could be as simple as saying "Congratulations! You completed basic training. Now go test you mettle against the world in Career! Or try your hand at Missions for practice and challenges."

If They choose to do missions, and they hit a bump, offer a Hint or Tip.

When All the missions are done, And they've Leveled Up, Open up more tutorials (ex. Tutorials: Chapter 2).
The new tutorials will have a short thing on what the new BotClass or AI Set features and Best Practices (Don't teach them everything though, it would take too long (both for you and the user). More like a Cliff Notes or Outline of what to do). Repeat for each Level.
The missions will be the same, but with tougher AI's That Utilize the new features. Mixing it up with Maps with the resources removed, and flipping sides, to add little more depth. This should also repeat but much less. (Like, Missions League 1 covers Levels 1~2, League 2 covers Levels 3~5, League 3 covers Levels 6~7)

The missions could also have challenge stage(s) where they run through 3 maps at once with the Timer Active (To keep things moving). This could be at the end of each bracket of Missions or as a separate set of Missions (A Trial for the Proud). Mix it up with Short Timers, Maps with the resources removed, Assaults Only Mode, and flipping sides, to add little more depth and challenge.
I think this is a good alternative to the whole "boss stage" idea too.

EDIT: This ended up a mix of Requests and Thoughts. Sorry in Advance.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 01 Feb 2017, 00:19
by GFX47
Nothing about the scripting of the current tutorials?
I thought it was perceived as too constraining, leaving no space to experiment and discovery.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 01 Feb 2017, 04:20
by shadowcalen
As someone who started playing two days ago, I have some thoughts. The tutorials by themselves are basically worthless except to show you the controls, which is done decidedly well. I feel that the best way to improve it is to scrap it and integrate it into the practice mode.

As soon as the tutorial was over I forgot how to do everything. So when I went though the practice levels, I started with a basic hunt/kill AI with resource gathering stuck at the end. I played with that until my AI started dieing first, and I added flee to regen shield routine. As the game progressed I added improvements to my AI which caused it to be more robust. I feel that if the tutorial walked players though in a similar manner, they would feel alot less overwhelmed.

I do have a large beef with the practice levels though. This game has two conflicting design philosophies, and it needs to decide which it is. Is it a game in which you build the best AI (or team of AI) or is it a game where you design the best stratagie for the level. I have been playing with a single AI that is currently in the master liege. It will fail on many of the practice missions. The reason for that is that the only real challenge to the practice missions is designing specialized AI that are used to counter the specialized AI of the mode. The game is literally training you to make AIs that are designed to do only one job. (which in my case was normally just a "bait" AI that would disrupt the plans of the opponents based on how the opponent preformed)

It wasent until after I had finished all the practice levels that I started multiplayer. I just took the primary evolution of my combat AI and saw what happened. I was able to get to 1050 without any mods to it, and after a overhaul I have my current iteration that normally sits between 1200-1300. I am having massive trouble progressing however, as my AI is fighting snipers and MGs, niether of which I was taught about. Further more I have no way of testing against them. This is making progress up the ranks near impossible and it would be very nice if the tutorial addressed the different bot types.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 01 Feb 2017, 07:12
by drartimus
I followed the tutorial the very first time, pretty closely, and found it helpful. Then I've had to do them a couple times after (empty laptop battery and installing on two other devices). It would have been nice if the tutorial was optional, it can be pretty tedious doing the tutorial over again when you know the game.

As for the tutorial rounds teaching you only how to build AIs for that round, I get that, however, tailoring AIs for a single encounter is more of a user philosophy than the game's. But, that's also not a bad thing. You learn your AI's short comings, and learn to improve them. If you take a cumulative approach, you can create AIs that can win every practice round, without swapping them between rounds. Granted, that's another user based philosophy that doesn't always work. (I discovered eventually when playing online).

Playing opponents with better bot classes sort of blows if you can't practice against them. But it also totally rocks if you beat them using only the assault class. The hardest thing for me is taking my lumps in online matches when I want the highest win percent by refining and practicing offline first. I guess that's why the XP points were introduced.

I was able to try tags before the online matches got realigned. I really could have used a tutorial for that. :lol: Also, a blurb on what the difference is for each class as they are unlocked would be nice. Is that worth a feature request?

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 01 Feb 2017, 08:50
by GFX47
drartimus wrote:Is that worth a feature request?

No, just keep posting here if it's about the tutorial.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 01 Feb 2017, 08:51
by drartimus
drartimus wrote:Also, a blurb on what the difference is for each class as they are unlocked would be nice. Is that worth a feature request?

Nevermind, looks like that's in Alpha 8's todo list.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 10:31
Great. Helpfull. And easy to follow. It helps to beable to refer back to them and also to remove them later. As a new member im finding them helpfull . But yes i think unlocking a higher tuto after finishing the first set of practice rounds is a valid idea but might just be extra work for nothing. The tuto is clean but as allways as time and programes gro so dose the design and feel. Time will set all .

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 05 Feb 2017, 00:49
by Shmalzbrot
I did the tutorials in 7.6 (i think) and found them useful for the basic controls.
Everything related to AI structure I learned from the missions.

As the game controls are pretty intuitive, it would be nice to be able to skip the tutorial if you want to.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 05 Feb 2017, 01:07
by 290117
Introduce connector & subtree. How to see subtree working while in battle. I'm not programmer, I read it here to understand subroutine.

Explain different classes of bots

Inform newbies, more bots + improved condition when higher XP level

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 06 Feb 2017, 18:55
by harthag
I think the tutorials have been updated some since I started about a month and a half ago, but I would have to agree with the "lacking" comment from ConsciouS-0nE, and the suggestions to make it progressive is a good one. They were good enough to get me through the single player missions, but were completely useless when it comes to multiplayer.

Edit: I just went through them again ... there *really* needs to be an option to skip them or exit out, once you've started one, at the very least for the ones that have already been completed. closing out of the program entirely is really not a good option if you accidentally select one and can't get out without going through the whole process again.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 19 Feb 2017, 06:31
by ConsciouS-0nE
All right, ive made my tactics 'experimental' Again but this time im pretty sure this is not gonna be removed, unlike the 'pushing I made'.
this is more over powered than the pushing strategy
,the stuff is always wanted before but they say "unachievable", so i made it "semi-possible" using the current gameplay.
*check my todays SYP/SW matches if you want to review the "OP-ness", its way more successful in SW as its made for it.

-removing scripted part of the tutorials,
Like I said above, we only see low range of variety about people trying new stuff(experimental) because they will base from things they 'saw' or 'thaught', which is the current tutorials and "copying" from stuff.

So id expect removing the 'scripted' part, I/we will see a 'wide range of experimental stuff'.
Because people would discover, do stuff theyre own way/s.

Re: Your thoughts on the tutorials?

Posted: 21 Feb 2017, 19:31
by Uthael
1) Give us an option to remove the constraints of tutorials. There could be a warning like "Leave the constraints for a normal, step-by-step tutorial. Remove them if you like fiddling around and learning yourself. It might take longer.".

2) Having my AI opened in another battle before, I zoomed it in to see it better. Had to move it half-off the screen to zoom in some more so the part I was interested in covers the right part of the screen.

I went to show the game to a buddy of mine. After watching a couple of matches, I showed him the tutorial to explain some basics. Really useful! But while watching a battle there, a part of the AI got cut off as I left it. And I couldn't move or resize it.
He saw it as a bug and his interest was pushed back a little.