TeamTags & other

Fulmenius
Hello World
Hello World
Posts: 4

TeamTags & other

Post#1 » 23 Jan 2017, 23:10

Good afternoon, ladies and gentelmen, and sir GameDev :lol:
Dont you think unlocking TeamTags and other code features only on high ranges is unfair and have no purpose?
Without TeamTags the code is handicapped, furthermore, it sometimes makes the online game unfair and irritating, because enemies can use _algorithms_ that you can not, and victory becomes not a question of mind, but of time you spent in annoying battles with handicapped if-if-if algorithms. If its a game of mind, shouldnt all players have a possibility of using non-autistic algorithms with tags, even if they cant use advanced bots like a shotgun or sniper? When enemy can use shotgun, and you cant, its ok, but when he can use fundamentally better algorithms, its 100% lose. And as i said, without tags making an algo is a BDSM pastime.
Sorry for my english.

sethcohn
Automaton
Automaton
Posts: 122

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#2 » 23 Jan 2017, 23:23

Many of us agree with you. GFX said it was to reduce new user UI overwhelm. I'd rather it be a setting and unlocked. I still don't have team tags... And will have to grind 100k (well, 90k+ Right now) merely to get them.

Tralalo
Script
Script
Posts: 20

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#3 » 23 Jan 2017, 23:30

I think tags aren't as much of a problem as bot classes are; playing against a sniper on some maps when you don't have one yourself is way too hard

ntk
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 75

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#4 » 24 Jan 2017, 00:38

U got a great chances of become the best

If u beat other player with handicap when u play fair games they lose and lose and lose. They didn't understand: the hight player vs low player MUST play with handicap and not viceversa.

Is nice reading of new good players and ask if it's another account of a know players. Didn't understand rank is not realy with this rules

Think this

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#5 » 24 Jan 2017, 03:54

Tralalo wrote:I think tags aren't as much of a problem as bot classes are; playing against a sniper on some maps when you don't have one yourself is way too hard

This. Bot classes first, then tags. But in general is unfair, the point is to not overwhelmed newcomers, this does not apply to those that are not anymore newcomers.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Fulmenius
Hello World
Hello World
Posts: 4

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#6 » 24 Jan 2017, 07:52

pier4r wrote:
Tralalo wrote:I think tags aren't as much of a problem as bot classes are; playing against a sniper on some maps when you don't have one yourself is way too hard

This. Bot classes first, then tags. But in general is unfair, the point is to not overwhelmed newcomers, this does not apply to those that are not anymore newcomers.

Idk about snipers, but shotguns and even machineguns are not the main problem if you have advanced algo.
But i think it would be better if game dev nerfed special classes and made them regular (if you can set whole team as shotguns, but shotguns are weaker, faster and effective only on close range, for example), but they still needed to be unlocked. It would make the game more interesting and various without breaking balance and losing interest to unlocking new levels. And GameDev could add more gamemodes to unlock in future, for example, domination or maze battle , instead of locking code.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#7 » 24 Jan 2017, 08:17

No we went through this and it is a lot of fixes. The actual classes are OK. If you don't believe me go on and try to propose values for classes and why are them better (not an easy task).

Having advanced algorithms with tags is unlikely. I'm using few of them and I would say that having a sniper is way more important. Then this is valid when you hit league 6 (or master), before up to Mg is all fine, one does not need advanced filters often.

TCT, that now has ~1900 points, reached 1600 without sniper. Mcompany has 1700+ and is tagless. If you are in league 5 with assault, shotgun, Mg, filters it is mostly fine. In League 6 surely you need the sniper, tags are not a game changer.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#8 » 24 Jan 2017, 08:19

Edit I just checked you are http://gfx47.com/games/Gladiabots/Stats ... =Fulmenius in League 4, it is very likely that your opponents at most have an Mg more, no fancy ai controls. You can check from the Stat page the XP levels.

And I assure you, those with 50k XP still in League 4 do not use properly advanced ai controls otherwise they would be in League 5.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#9 » 24 Jan 2017, 11:08

I would say that with the current levels, if someone has 170k+ points (so, sniper and a bit of experience with it) should be in League 6 otherwise is doing something wrong or not good enough.

If someone has 70k+ should be in league 5 for the same reason.

The rest is ok in the lower leagues because those give a bit of training, one cannot imagine to level up after a couple of wins, it would be arrogant.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Shmalzbrot
Script
Script
Posts: 13

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#10 » 24 Jan 2017, 22:28

pier4r wrote:TCT, that now has ~1900 points, reached 1600 without sniper.
Can you post some replay IDs where he defeated reasonably good sniper players without using a sniper? The oldest I can find are already with snipers on both teams.
I am currently in a comparable situation - came into league 6 without MG, and cannot think of strategies that would work somewhat reliable vs a team with sniper. And as long as I do not have a plan how to deal with those snipers, I can't get myself to write an AI that uses the MG properly and grind those 150k XP to the sniper. :(

By the way - I agree that tags are not as game-changing as Fulmenius thinks. My first 2 drafts used tags, number 3 was tagless, beats the tagging versions reliably and got me to diamond league with 14/15 wins.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#11 » 24 Jan 2017, 22:31

That's thought, those things happened 2 days ago and I do not remember exacty the replay Id :( But you can hope for similar stuff for those with less than 150k xp points with 1400+ in Master league, as soon as you see a victory of them not in "mind game" and "circle of death" over a gu with more than 150k xp points, it is likely that they countered the sniper quite nicely.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Shmalzbrot
Script
Script
Posts: 13

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#12 » 24 Jan 2017, 22:41

Yup, thats what I tried some days ago, and all I found was players that either stopped playing after XP were introduced, or started losing most of the time after XP were introduced. Will have to keep searching then, I guess.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#13 » 24 Jan 2017, 23:10

Indeed stuff is behaving like I expected viewtopic.php?f=7&t=313

Just if you hit league 6 being level 5 XP, should be very frustrating. But this happens because the system is not yet stabilized.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Botique
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 96

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#14 » 25 Jan 2017, 21:22

Well I had exactly this experience... master level, xp level 4, meaning - no tags, no team tags, no snipers... And have to compete against top guys... and even then once and a while have to wreck NullPointer... but yes, unfair, so you must double think around your algorithms.

So some hints...

Build in some kind of avoidance of the sniper. Sometimes it throws sniper aim off, and if AI is not good enough, you can sneak upon sniper while it tries to snipe someone who is actively avoidng it.

Remember that shotgun is the fastest bot - kite your enemy. My algorithms use shotgun to kite enemies (avoid ones shooting at it) and try to sneak on close range on ones who are not attacking shotgun - in crouded situations you notice how one shotgun wrecks havoc among advanced AI crowd.

So... it's possible, but yes, very annoying, as you will loose to the good players and programmers.

Botique
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 96

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#15 » 25 Jan 2017, 22:18

Ahh at last got my sniper, now matches are much better. But well... I need essentially that possibility to pass info across the bots... then the real fun will begin.

Shmalzbrot
Script
Script
Posts: 13

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#16 » 25 Jan 2017, 22:47

Strange, looks like my post disappeared. New try:

Thanks Botique for the hints! Do you check whether your target is actually attacking your shotgun (if yes: how? ) or do you just detect that *someone* is attacking you (loss of health/shield)?

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#17 » 25 Jan 2017, 22:52

Yup even my post disappeared.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Shmalzbrot
Script
Script
Posts: 13

Re: TeamTags & other

Post#18 » 25 Jan 2017, 23:07

pier4r wrote:Yup even my post disappeared.

Looks like it reappeared over in the grand master thread. :shock:
Anyways, time for me to go to bed and/or write a shotgun AI with more than 2 nodes.

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