Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Maaku
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Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#1 » 16 Nov 2016, 17:50

Let me start off with how I love this game so much and I think gfx is doing a bang on job.

But I noticed at the top of league 4 this game is currently a rock paper scissor depending on what your team composition is. Sniper>Machine gun>shotgun>sniper
Unless you play assault then you get to lose to everything.

It makes the game less rewarding when you can start the game and basically call out whether it will be a tie, win, or lose based purly on what bots the opponent is using.

It would be cool if we can have some way with enough skills to change the outcome of the battle beyond a draw when faced with your class weakness.

So I hope to have a discussion in this thread on how to make it happen.

Personally I think that unless there is a way to program a AI to counter it's class weakness this game will devolve into rock paper scissor luck based game and your ratings at higher levels depends purely on what other bots is popular currently.

One way I suggest is the ability to dodge fire with evasive maneuvers allowing machine guns to close distance on snipers and snipers to avoid taking full damage from shotguns and shotguns to dodge machine gun fire while in all cases allowing it's teammates to deal the damage.

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radyjko
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#2 » 16 Nov 2016, 18:09

Why use team composing of only one type of bot?
I'm like Neo from matrix, except instead of bullets I dodge responsibilities

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NullPointer
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#3 » 16 Nov 2016, 18:18

I think this is an oversimplification, but I haven't played against enough strategies yet to form a solid opinion about this.

Still, a rule like "one class can't compose more than 67% of your team" would be cool.

Maaku
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#4 » 16 Nov 2016, 18:32

radyjko wrote:Why use team composing of only one type of bot?


Not one type but rather the composition an example would be if in map "split team" most common composition would be one machine gun and 4 snipers, this loses to 5 shotguns, also loses to 5 snipers, but if it was 2 machine guns and 3 snipers it will beat 5 shotguns, but still lose to 5 snipers. This makes the game like rock paper scissors where it's based on luck and not skill

pier4r
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#5 » 16 Nov 2016, 22:03

Well I suggested that the bot are choosen by the server (so not by the player) and the player has to choose the right AIs given the bot composition. This guarantees that the players know what will be facing (each player having the same) and without a preferred bot.

The problem: would the players accept to lose control of choice? I would, but the others?
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ntk
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#6 » 16 Nov 2016, 23:49

Something u discover accindetly what u search for long time

I played now in split team vs nullpointer and his sniper defeat my shotgun.... he give me an idea and want test it... take an sniper AI... for test for change something... but this AI kill easy shotgun in a map where i test this without win with other sniper AI... :oops:

I never think this AI can defeat shotgun

MGBlitz81
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#7 » 17 Nov 2016, 00:58

On seven wonders and Set Your Priorities, I discovered how all snipers can beat all shotguns easily. The trick only works about 50% of the time, depending on the enemies AI. Its been tested and proven vs only the most basic shotgun AI.

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#8 » 17 Nov 2016, 01:38

imho it has to do with the lack of choices for moving around. There are only very basic possibilities to move around, so direct approach like rush'n'shoot with shotgun or stand around and shoot with snipers works well.

More sophisticated moves like flanking (which brings a lot, especially against shotguns) are only possible with using of landmarks like bases. That makes the AI highly unpredictable after the first 30 seconds. I think with another type of movement (eg. set own landmarks to reach) combined with a longer match-period (5 minute?) this paper-scissor-rock thing could be avoided. With more movement a more diverse team could gain more power then a team with only one bot-type.

For Splitteam that could result in a fight for two outer boundaries (without beeing pushed outside) with snipers or MG, maybe a shotgun to secure sniper. From outer boundary you could slowly push enemy to the middle where they can't flee (or they push you out, hard to predict).

btw gfx, thanks for that game. This game is very unique and I know nothing comparable.

Maaku
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#9 » 17 Nov 2016, 02:02

Ritter Runkel wrote:imho it has to do with the lack of choices for moving around. There are only very basic possibilities to move around, so direct approach like rush'n'shoot with shotgun or stand around and shoot with snipers works well.

More sophisticated moves like flanking (which brings a lot, especially against shotguns) are only possible with using of landmarks like bases. That makes the AI highly unpredictable after the first 30 seconds. I think with another type of movement (eg. set own landmarks to reach) combined with a longer match-period (5 minute?) this paper-scissor-rock thing could be avoided. With more movement a more diverse team could gain more power then a team with only one bot-type.

For Splitteam that could result in a fight for two outer boundaries (without beeing pushed outside) with snipers or MG, maybe a shotgun to secure sniper. From outer boundary you could slowly push enemy to the middle where they can't flee (or they push you out, hard to predict).

btw gfx, thanks for that game. This game is very unique and I know nothing comparable.


I really like this idea so I'll give this a vote, being able to set personal markings on the map beforehand that you can have conditions for your bot to head towards, though maybe they need a bonus damage when flanked to encourage programming ais that flank rather then just simply run forward as a clump

pier4r
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#10 » 17 Nov 2016, 08:10

Yes static markings is a very nice idea! Ah the power of brainstorming!
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MGBlitz81
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#11 » 17 Nov 2016, 09:20

I don't like it so much, doesn't seem very AI like... Instead we should just have directional scanning for enemies and more movement options to include strafing and fleeing in different directions. The AI shouldn't be limited to moving closer to and away from enemies and static locations. It should be able to consider the best direction to take when moving to enemies and static locations even if that means taking a few turns in the processn

pier4r
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#12 » 17 Nov 2016, 10:10

MGBlitz81 wrote:I don't like it so much, doesn't seem very AI like... Instead we should just have directional scanning for enemies and more movement options to include strafing and fleeing in different directions. The AI shouldn't be limited to moving closer to and away from enemies and static locations. It should be able to consider the best direction to take when moving to enemies and static locations even if that means taking a few turns in the processn


Ok but you have to see also the feasibility for the dev. What you ask for is not so trivial to implement. Instead putting markers on the map (maybe even numbered) make it way easier to handle with the current commands. Imagine you have 8 markers and so you have a filter with "is marker1, is marker2, etc.." you can do a lot of approaches in this way and it is faster to implement.

I still think that the fastest way (in terms of implementation) is to take away the control for selecting bot classes from the player (this way it is also solves the complain about losing the bot class due to demotions, since one cannot really choose it, it is just assigned by the server). In this way the ones that have the best Ai config for the given situation wins, and there is little chance since both players have the same bots.
Last edited by pier4r on 17 Nov 2016, 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Maaku
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#13 » 17 Nov 2016, 10:27

MGBlitz81 wrote:I don't like it so much, doesn't seem very AI like... Instead we should just have directional scanning for enemies and more movement options to include strafing and fleeing in different directions. The AI shouldn't be limited to moving closer to and away from enemies and static locations. It should be able to consider the best direction to take when moving to enemies and static locations even if that means taking a few turns in the processn


Choosing what directions to flee/strafing sounds good as well, so another vote from me.

Actually it would be cool to be able to shoot and move at a reduced move speed with a penalty to accuracy maybe it will let assault have a special role as well being able to shoot and move with less penalty then other classes. Slower then move commands and less damaging then straight up attacking, but opens up many options tactically.

Also lets units reposition while shooting slowly opens up so many new strategies.

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NullPointer
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#14 » 17 Nov 2016, 10:31

Agree with strafing/flanking, I already suggested this once.

MGBlitz81
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#15 » 17 Nov 2016, 18:01

Well, I don't think it would be too hard to implement. Just add degrees to the distance filters for a lot of it...

If self shield is 0 to 25% and...
If enemy exist at short/mediun range between 315 and 45 degrees then...
Move towards 90 degrees if enemy doesn't exist between 45 and 135 degrees or else...
Move towards 270 degrees if enemy doesn't exist between 225 and 315 or else...
Move towards 180 degrees.

It's simply just more control over movement is all.

pier4r
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#16 » 17 Nov 2016, 18:10

Nice that you explained more, but how do you make this in the UI without being chaotic? Consider that people play also on 4.5 inch screens.

And no the "they should play only with a computer" is not really a strong argument.

I do not know if would be possible to implement scroll bars or numbers that one can click up and down (so with 15degrees per time), it is up to gfx. But with options how it is now would be too long. Well patient players can do it, but imagine the newcomers. Without newcomers whatever community is gone.
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HDeffo
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#17 » 17 Nov 2016, 19:08

As complicated as it sounds to set up I really do hope someday this game adds in angles, degrees, numbers, math, variables, etc. Just adding in the ability to calculate math would throw the best AI cap and differences so high it would be unbelievable

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#18 » 17 Nov 2016, 19:45

I'm not sure if having to many possibilities makes it to complicated to start with the game. Especially in the beginning I liked having a simple AI, growing and growing. With angles, degrees and numbers the AI become highly unpredictable and not to funny to keep playing :roll:

But I like the idea of angle-sections like front, right left. With that you can implement AI formations and also flanking (go right/left on the border between far and to far).

pier4r
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#19 » 17 Nov 2016, 20:40

HDeffo wrote:As complicated as it sounds to set up I really do hope someday this game adds in angles, degrees, numbers, math, variables, etc. Just adding in the ability to calculate math would throw the best AI cap and differences so high it would be unbelievable


I do too, hpefully it will be turning complete one day, but that's a lot of work so, I appreciate small addition from time to time.
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Johnbob
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Re: Fixing Fancy Rock Paper Scissors

Post#20 » 17 Nov 2016, 21:24

The problem is that the learning curve will be harder and it is one of the good aspects of this game that you learn the basics easily. The tutorial is good and it's important to attract more players.

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