Complexity

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GFX47
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Re: Complexity

Post#21 » 18 Jan 2017, 17:39

ICYMI, I'm working on progressive complexity with 7.6 XP/level system.
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=302&start=40

New specific tutorials will come later.

I agree the game has become much more complex now that we have more tools to design AIs :/
Should I remove tools? I don't think it's the right solution.
I think it's mainly due to a more dense UI.

That's why in Alpha 8, I'll work on the target system refactoring, adding target presets (e.g. "Closest Threatening Enemy" AKA "Closest AttackingSelf Enemy", "Ally in distress" AKA Closest 0-25%Shield Attacked Ally, etc).
You will still have the option to go deeper and create your own target setups like today.
They will be reusable easily, you won't have to select the target type, selector and all the filters, just reuse your target setup.
It will add more menus but if you don't want to "go deeper", you can stay on the upper layer and see a much less cluttered UI.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Posts: 740

Re: Complexity

Post#22 » 18 Jan 2017, 17:56

If level system wouldn't show any subtile results,
We can move to an even sliced one.
Anyone can choose cups they want to enter for complexity level
"THE CUPS"

    "Baby cups"
    -consists
  • League1-2-3-4
  • Promotion rules as points reached
  • removed special classes
  • alpha 4.x style
    P.s i would like to bully here every single day. :twisted:


    "intermediate cups"
    -consist
  • leagues 1-2-3-4
  • has classes
  • 5.x style?
  • no advanced filters/conditions


    "Pro cups"
    HARDCORE BATLLES, WE WANT!
    THIS IS SPARTA!!
  • leagues 1-4
  • hardcore everything
  • bring it on




    solo player scoring sytem
  • will 'suggest/recommend' wich cup oneself could enter based on how well he did on single player.


    But lets give level system (a must)
    A shot as it is already there.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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GFX47
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Re: Complexity

Post#23 » 18 Jan 2017, 17:58

Reposting HDeffo's reply here:

HDeffo wrote:The biggest problem isn't complexity it's presentation which is being corrected in alpha 8. In any game you play if you want to compete with the best of the best things get incredibly complex and a lot more time consuming than 50 hours. Different games have different methods of solving this complexity dilemma though. In call of duty they utilize your fight or flight reaction and most people are too preoccupied with "I need to hurry and shoot someone" to start pulling out all the math of angles distance and such that MLG players start getting into. In chess it relies on memorization. Not every ability is readily available to you at the start because you have to memorize each of them in turn and most players don't even realize many exist until after it's been memorized. In gladiabots you're presented with every option all at the same time with no distraction to temporarily make you feel like a few aren't there. There is no directed order over what you should learn or even how to learn it. The complexity creep is something we absolutely need to continue maintaining long interest by active players but at the same time we need to make sure it's always a steady creepy and never at any point all at once for a player soc we don't miss out on new players as well

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Complexity

Post#24 » 18 Jan 2017, 18:00

Id agree,
For now we wait.
Were aware of it.
Well solve it.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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Kanishka
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Re: Complexity

Post#25 » 18 Jan 2017, 18:01

This layout would make it easier to find conditions and/or filters:
Attack
- Attacked
- AttackedBySelf
- AttackedByAlly
- AttackedByEnemy
- Attacking
- AttackingSelf
- AttackingAlly
- AttackingEnemy
Action (For Ally Only)
- TaggingAny
- TaggingSelf
- TaggingAlly
- TaggingEnemy
- TaggingResource
- TaggingAllyBase
- TaggingEnemyBase
- Idle (For Enemy Also)
Move To
- MovingToAny
- MovingToSelf
- MovingToAlly
- MovingToEnemy
- MovingToResource
- MovingToEnemyBase
- MovingToAllyBase
Flee From
- FleeFromAny
- FleeFromSelf
- FleeFromAlly
- FleeFromEnemy
- FleeFromResource
- FleeFromEnemyBase
- FleeFromAllyBase
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Hamster
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Re: Complexity

Post#26 » 18 Jan 2017, 18:02

I dont think removing a bunch of tools is the right way to go about reducing complexity. Progression, tutorials and UI Tweaks seem like the best way.


Also, while I'm here: what does relative shield do? (relative to what? self? different enemy?)

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Kanishka
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Re: Complexity

Post#27 » 18 Jan 2017, 18:06

Hamster wrote:I dont think removing a bunch of tools is the right way to go about reducing complexity. Progression, tutorials and UI Tweaks seem like the best way.


Also, while I'm here: what does relative shield do? (relative to what? self? different enemy?)


Relative to self.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Complexity

Post#28 » 18 Jan 2017, 22:01

Hamster wrote:Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'd like the game to be a bit simpler


I didn't play Alpha 7 yet but I'm a little bit afraid about that too. Imho it's part of the fun to think about how to bring the bots to do things with the given amount of filters. If you play allot you get used to all the filters but for more occasional players I absolutely see this point.

Hamster wrote:If I want to compete with the very best I have to learn how to use tags/filter, I have to write separate Ai's for a bunch of the maps, and on top of this I should probably give the Sniper a different protocol then say an Assault bot.


:mrgreen: You got it. But it's more about getting an idea about what you want your bots to do and being able to put that into your AIs.

Hamster wrote:My current main AI is already like 100+ nodes (including subtrees) so yeah, if I wanna do all of the above that's maybe another 50+ nodes of different bits of code to write and then maintain.


With the subtrees I never counted my nodes but complexity for the AIs dropped allot since we have the subtrees. Coming back to your statement about different AIs for different Bots: here you can improve your AIs allot without rising complexity to much. For example you can build two or three aiming tactics (aggressive, defensive, pushy, SG-prioritized, ...) in some subtrees. Same for retreat tactics and moving tactics. After that you can make supersimple AIs, only combining the retreatment, the tagging, the aiming, the moving and whatever you also want to add. When letting them fight against each other (or in the multiplayer), you fastly get an idea which tactics work better and improving means only changing the tactics through changing a subtree to another (very helpfull for different tactics on different maps) or you can improve the aiming, retreating, etc. itself.

For my Bots I use e.g. the same aiming in Split Team and SYP map, but the retreatment differs. And My AIs seldom have more the 30 nodes.

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