Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

sollniss
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Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#1 » 25 Feb 2018, 23:48

Either change the node description or change the behavior.

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GFX47
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#2 » 25 Feb 2018, 23:52

You can't attack out of range enemies.
I'll add it in the attack action description.

sollniss
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#3 » 25 Feb 2018, 23:52

Why?

mcompany
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#4 » 25 Feb 2018, 23:55

GFX47 wrote:You can't attack out of range enemies.

Either way, it is still very misleading that such a node can be made without any sort of restrictions or warnings that for attacking out of range enemies

sollniss
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#5 » 25 Feb 2018, 23:59

Why would you even change the way logic works.

Closest resource returns the closest resource, no matter the range.
Closest base returns the closest base, no matter the range.
Closest enemy returns the closest enemy in range ???

Closest enemy out of range doesn't trigger even if there's an out of range enemy ???

Even the fact that "move to closest enemy" and "attack closest enemy" could target two different enemies is stupid beyond believe.
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Hairy Phil
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#6 » 26 Feb 2018, 00:19

There are (rare) times when it would be beneficial to attack an out-of-range target, for example a sniper could start aiming at an enemy coming towards him in the hope that the shot would hit just as he entered range.

I've enjoyed the extra good-practice I've had to use in my AI to stop my bots being scared away by shotguns shooting at long range. Same with out-of-range.

On the other hand, I see how new players could be abused if they did for example a basic flee-if-3-enemies-attacking, but those enemies were on the other side of the map. I don't think the extra strategy from attacking out-of-range is worth that.

But I think consistency is the most important thing to avoid confusion for all, so would have to agree with Sollniss on this one regarding the triggering of move/attack.

Note: This could be resolved by renaming "attack" to "attack within range", but that's ugly.

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GFX47
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#7 » 27 Feb 2018, 09:13

I changed it after seeing a lot of new players trying to attack out of range enemies during playtests.
What's the point of shooting out of range if it will never hit anything.

sollniss wrote:Closest resource returns the closest resource, no matter the range.
Closest base returns the closest base, no matter the range.
Closest enemy returns the closest enemy in range ???


Nope, the target research system didn't change, it's just the attack action that is invalid when target is out of range.

sollniss wrote:stupid beyond believe


Really?

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GFX47
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#8 » 27 Feb 2018, 09:18

Hairy Phil wrote:There are (rare) times when it would be beneficial to attack an out-of-range target, for example a sniper could start aiming at an enemy coming towards him in the hope that the shot would hit just as he entered range.


True.
That's a rather advanced tactic/exploit that I'm not sure a lot of players use though.
I'm currently trying to rather help new players than allow hidden black magic ^^
Let's hear what the others say...

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Hairy Phil
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#9 » 27 Feb 2018, 10:03

Another solution: When you add a new attack node, "distance from me is short or medium or long" is always selected by default. That would prevent errors by new players but still allow advanced players to change it.

The more common time that you might want to attack out of range is to continue firing at an enemy that is dancing on the long-range border.

WASP103
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#10 » 27 Feb 2018, 13:00

sollniss wrote:Why would you even change the way logic works.

Closest enemy returns the closest enemy in range ???

Speaking of logic.
How is it even logically possible? Every enemy withing range is logically always closer than any enemy out of range. So the argument is invalid regarding logic.


sollniss wrote:Even the fact that "move to closest enemy" and "attack closest enemy" could target two different enemies is stupid beyond believe.

Again, given every enemy within range is automatically closer than any enemy out of range, how could this ever return two different enemies?



sollniss wrote:Closest enemy out of range doesn't trigger even if there's an out of range enemy ???

That argument I totally agree with. Given attacking OOB enemies is disabled, this combination of filters is rendered useless regarding attacks. I think that collides with how the other filtering mechanics work.
It would be explainable within lore that maybe the targeting sensors just don't work beyond that range or something like that. Which, right now, it is not the case. The only places this is documented is in the change logs and now here in the forum.
Properly documented/lore'd that would just be a special case new people would have to keep in mind.

On the other hand:
GFX47 wrote:(...) hidden black magic ^^
Let's hear what the others say...


I am all for black magic.
Here are my arguments:
  • Until any new ppl would encounter these sorts of tactics, there's already a mountain to climb, learning curve-wise. I think by the time players reach that sort of endgame, they think about stuff like that already. To realize that you can't hit enemies out of range, but that you can still attack them is part of the learning curve that leads to well checked and error-proof code.
    I thought about implementing it before I read about it here. But: I read about targeting limitations in the change logs first, so I didn't implement it to begin with. I can totally understand Solniss' frustration after finding out the hard way.

    And that leads me to this:
  • I don't think that new players will be frustrated, not knowing about this technique yet. In worst case, it doesn't make a difference there since they are still overwhelmed with all the other stuff. But in best case within late-game, involved players read about it in the dev logs? So in worst case, it leads to bug reports and frustration like seen here.
(In my opinion it's that same sort of undocumented behaviour that right now heats up the discussion on instant tagging as well.)

<3


WASP103
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#12 » 27 Feb 2018, 19:32

One Idea I just had:
You could mark "0%" after the outermost ring that gets painted on the ground when a bot is activated. Just like it is with the Long-Range-Ring of the Shotgun. That would make pretty clear for new people that shooting outside of this range makes no sense.

Jeffrey Harpen
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#13 » 27 Feb 2018, 19:39

I agree with Hairy Phil: attacking enemies out of range can be useful and I would like it to be possible. If it was a problem for newbies, you could add some kind of "compiler warning" in AI editor.

WASP103 wrote:Every enemy withing range is logically always closer than any enemy out of range. So the argument is invalid regarding logic.

No, it's the other way: if all the enemies are out of range, one of them is the closest one, right? But the action node tells you that there is no closest enemy - that's the magic! ;)
And speaking seriously it can also be misleading for new players. :?

mcompany
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#14 » 27 Feb 2018, 19:43

WASP103 wrote:One Idea I just had:
You could mark "0%" after the outermost ring that gets painted on the ground when a bot is activated. Just like it is with the Long-Range-Ring of the Shotgun. That would make pretty clear for new people that shooting outside of this range makes no sense.

Actually, that's a really good point: Shotgun doesn't do any damage in long range, so making out of range targets invalid is fairly inconsistent with how the shotgun already works.
WASP103 wrote:On the other hand:
GFX47 wrote:(...) hidden black magic ^^
Let's hear what the others say...


I am all for black magic.
Here are my arguments:
  • Until any new ppl would encounter these sorts of tactics, there's already a mountain to climb, learning curve-wise. I think by the time players reach that sort of endgame, they think about stuff like that already. To realize that you can't hit enemies out of range, but that you can still attack them is part of the learning curve that leads to well checked and error-proof code.
    I thought about implementing it before I read about it here. But: I read about targeting limitations in the change logs first, so I didn't implement it to begin with. I can totally understand Solniss' frustration after finding out the hard way.

    And that leads me to this:
  • I don't think that new players will be frustrated, not knowing about this technique yet. In worst case, it doesn't make a difference there since they are still overwhelmed with all the other stuff. But in best case within late-game, involved players read about it in the dev logs? So in worst case, it leads to bug reports and frustration like seen here.
(In my opinion it's that same sort of undocumented behaviour that right now heats up the discussion on instant tagging as well.)

+1. Also, If anything, this black magic is both practical at lower levels (do I hear a assault only Split Team), and at the same time not exactly a very necessary trick to use

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Hairy Phil
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#15 » 27 Feb 2018, 20:16

It is a good point that everyone is at "a" range. If you renamed the ranges to "range 1", "range 2", etc, and then tried telling a new player:
* You can move toward an enemy in ranges 1 2 3 4.
* You can attack an enemy in ranges 1 2 3 4, but if you choose 4 nothing will happen.
* If you're a shotgun, you can attack an enemy in ranges 1 2 3 4, but if you choose 3 or 4 nothing will happen.
* These rules exist to prevent you becoming confused!

I don't think that's easier to understand than:
* You can move toward or attack any enemy at any range.
* The greater the distance, the lower the chance of hitting.

I certainly would let the player fix the problem themselves of having 0% chance of hitting. The only issue is making it clear to them that there is a problem. It could be a tutorial mission (a funny way would be to have a map where you have a single Assault and are being attacked by 3 Shotguns at long range, to show the player how dramatic this error can be).

Or, it would be inconsistent with the current artistic design, but maybe you could play a "missing" sound effect, or have a speech bubble popup from the bot saying "0% chance of hitting current target", or have an advisor character appear in the corner of the screen and say "hey, some advice, you'll never do any damage at that range".

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Hairy Phil
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#16 » 27 Feb 2018, 20:21

The range isn't the issue, it's failure to communicate a missed attack that's causing confusion in new players.

I really see this as a good opportunity to give the player a goal, of solving this problem.

sollniss
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#17 » 28 Feb 2018, 02:17

WASP103 wrote:Speaking of logic.
How is it even logically possible? Every enemy withing range is logically always closer than any enemy out of range. So the argument is invalid regarding logic.


The node says "closest enemy", it doesn't say anything about range. It's unlogical.

WASP103 wrote:
sollniss wrote:Even the fact that "move to closest enemy" and "attack closest enemy" could target two different enemies is stupid beyond believe.

Again, given every enemy within range is automatically closer than any enemy out of range, how could this ever return two different enemies?

One enemy exists and is out of range:

"Move to closest enemy" moves to said enemy. "Attack closest enemy" does nothing.
enemy != nothing => two different results.

GFX47 wrote:I'm currently trying to rather help new players than allow hidden black magic ^^


Then add a warning message a la "warning: no range specified" when a player makes a node "attack closest enemy", but please don't just change how the logic works. Let's stay consistent.

WASP103
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#18 » 28 Feb 2018, 14:34

sollniss wrote:(...) but please don't just change how the logic works. Let's stay consistent.

+1
Yeps. I think consistency is violated by making those exceptions. Even for new players that get confused by this. I think the effort of thinking hey, let's just attack closest enemy and then realizing what they did wrong after seeing the bot shooting across the map takes like what? One run? If people get scared off by one failure here, I don't think they will make it anywhere close to a complete set of rules.

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GFX47
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#19 » 28 Feb 2018, 17:31

OK, I'll restore previous behavior and add details in the action description.

WASP103
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Re: Attack closest enemy doesn't trigger for out of range enemies

Post#20 » 01 Mar 2018, 07:58

How about the 0% range marker like the shotgun has it?

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