Incoming changes

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GFX47
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Incoming changes

Post#1 » 29 Nov 2016, 01:38

Motivations

The objective here is to solve several problems we currently have with the alpha:
  • the game focus shifting from generic AI design to map specific team composition
  • the rock/paper/scissors phenomenon regarding the bot classes balancing
  • too many AIs being created to implement map specific strategies (real sub-trees will play their part later)
So here's the mid-long term idea...

Bot classes

Each class costs a certain amount of points depending on their stats.
Special classes like shotgun, machine gun and sniper cost more than the default/assault class but "low cost" classes are to come.
You have a limited "budget" for your team.
Consequence: teams can still vary in term of composition but also in term of size (from 1 to 6), offering more strategic options while limiting usage of special classes.

Every player will (re)start with a team made of 4 assault bots (less than max budget) and points will be earned by playing ranked multiplayer matches. Every victory adding the equivalent of the score bonus to your point balance. Balance is not impacted by defeats and draws.
Once you have enough points, you can "buy" a new bot of your choice (not sure to keep current league based unlock system).

Each map has at least 8 slots by team. Default bots positions can be changed in training mode.

Multiplayer

Ranked matches won't display the (randomly) selected map anymore, you will just have to click on the "PLAY" button to initiate matchmaking and submit your team.
This will force players to find generic solutions.

PS: I still have to find a way to make the handling of several teams interesting, apart from testing different strategies...
Any input is welcome ;)

ntk
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#2 » 29 Nov 2016, 03:42

I.don't like ranked games.
When private games come, i play only it. I will play ranked only for be on top scores.

I think on private match the setup will be more free: maps, filter on bot, on elo, on invite on what u like.

On multiplayer if it be a game with budget i think will be all games of assalt with rush... many is best of few

Last i think the bots need memories.
Now i can know shield or other things of single bots but how many bots? The timer if near the end?
Need timer/register/counter variables or step or anything like it.

MGBlitz81
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#3 » 29 Nov 2016, 06:13

I like the budget system. Sounds like it would help to even the score. Can't wait to see it in action!

As for the completely random maps... I'm not sure yet. Can you explain it a little bit better? For instance, on meeting point... I'm using a fairly generic AI, but I would like my gunners to start in the position closest to the enemy on each side, am I not going to be able to do this? Are the starting positions chosen randomly for your team? How about using an odd number of bots on the same map... how do you determine where the extra bot is?

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Chunkymonkey
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#4 » 29 Nov 2016, 07:01

Sounds interesting.
I'm for the new unlock/point earning idea.
I'm guessing that means only teams that are +/- of the same points values will be matched with each other?

If the new maps have specific spawn points and I can choose what/where to spawn given my team salary cap, that would be interesting.

Offtopic: I'm with ntk in wanting timers/registers/counters. Comparing and counting bots would be nice as would knowing how much time is left on the clock but I think is already in the suggestions on the trello board from way back when.

That will at least give smarter play instead of kill them all.

Christian
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#5 » 29 Nov 2016, 10:49

I don´t quite understand it yet. Budget points are earned playing multiplayer matches (point difference in result; how are deathmatches counted?). Those points are spent once for a new bot class or every match the bot is set up in the start configuration? Or are the points not spent but rather indicate what you are allowed to use in any match that comes from that point on?

Match setup for a specific map will be done in training mode? For the first online match all of the trainings maps will have to be set up by the player?

What happens if there aren´t enough points left for the setup stored in training-mode? Special bots are lost or start as another class and probably an ill-fitted (regarding the bot class) ai?

Will players be matched according to their budget? If budet is really used (the points spent are lost afterwards) this will add another randomness to the outcome of a match if one player spents points and the other one saves points (for whatever reasons).

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#6 » 29 Nov 2016, 13:12

Yay new basic classes
Im looking forward onto this Dr.

The about the 'budget' i can't quite determine

@christian
I thought it was like this:
Every match there's an budget let's
Say 80
To limit speacial classes usage they have more amounts than basic ones
Ex.

Low cost:
Assault:10
New classes:10

Special classes
Machine gun :30
Shotgun:40
Sniper:50

Lets say the map is 'seven wonders'
80 points available
*added one sniper -50
30points available
*added three assaults -30
0 points available
Then play?
Then it resets every game?
*winning adds more 'budget' so lets say nullpointer always wins and has more points to spam special classes, soo.
Ill wait for further things,
But i like this already.
I only read gfx post above once cuz im lazy.
Last edited by ConsciouS-0nE on 29 Nov 2016, 13:56, edited 1 time in total.

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GFX47
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#7 » 29 Nov 2016, 13:33

Some clarifications.

When you win a ranked match, you get X points from the loser that are added to your ranking score (elo rating).
The same amount of points will be added to your point balance.

You will buy new bots for your team by spending points from your balance. You don't spend any point to play a match.

Bots will have a default slot assignment on each map and you will be able to tweak it in training mode.

pier4r
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#8 » 29 Nov 2016, 14:20

Interesting idea. I expect that it will bring even more balancing challenges (to find the right equilibrium), but one has to start with a certain setup and then refine it.

About variables: of course variables are welcomed (not only currently targeted) but I know that ensuring a correct implementation is not trivial so I understand if this request get deferred.

For the private/unranked matches. Those are crucial to setup community tournaments. To reply to ntk, using my experience from other online games I can say that either one play a "ranked" unranked match (in other words, a private match that counts for a tournament, so it is ranked in the context of the tournament) or few players will be interested to play unranked matches unless you find sparring partner to test tactics.

PS: gfx I long for the release of private matches so I can organize tournaments! My second name is the "tournament guy".
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Johnbob
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#9 » 29 Nov 2016, 14:51

GFX47 wrote:Motivations

The objective here is to solve several problems we currently have with the alpha:
  • the game focus shifting from generic AI design to map specific team composition
  • the rock/paper/scissors phenomenon regarding the bot classes balancing
  • too many AIs being created to implement map specific strategies (real sub-trees will play their part later)


The second one is not a problem.
First, there is no rock/paper/scissors phenomenon (but it requires some strategy)
Secondly, even though it existed it could be seen as a way of giving a chance to players that are beginning or that are low in ranking.


The first one and the third one: The game took a turn that you didn't really plan or want but it is quite funny and a good challenge.
But I understand you and I think the way you see it and will design it will be quite a challenge too and I'm going to give it a try :)

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NullPointer
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#10 » 29 Nov 2016, 16:30

Leagues could be just about rating, not bot types.

Imo the game needs more types of conditions/actions to have good generic AIs.
Examples:

- The AI can't decide if it should rush for resources. Maybe I have 5 bots and need 1 resource, but maybe I have 2 bots and need 3 resources. Since I can't know this, I'll just focus on killing everything first.

- The AI doesn't know if it lost an ally or killed an enemy and cannot adapt.

- I can't write conditions on the time left.

- No strafe. Flanking is one of the most important strategies in shooting games.

- There's no state (except for Currently Targeted), therefore I can't do a single decision based on what happened in the past.

- If the bot is charging a shot, it should shoot. The damage should be calculated based on where the enemy was when first locked, this will end the funny dancing lol and the exploit where you can freeze all the Snipers with 1 Shotgun going in and out of range.

- I can't prevent the AI from killing itself by hitting the map edges. (walls would be much better)

I'm sure there's more to this list. The best way to come up with new requirements is to put your self in the bot's place (not geeky at all) and think about all the different actions you would have taken if you had full control as a human.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#11 » 02 Dec 2016, 14:48

Changed max pending matches from 5 to 10 <3 <3
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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NullPointer
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#12 » 02 Dec 2016, 20:18

I opened another account I have with less than 20 games in a laptop and I can't find games on League 3 either. Then I installed again in my phone and was able to find only 7 matches in League 1, which is supposed to have thousands playing.

I think the matchmaking and/or the leagues score split could be revised before the next release, the game is less active than in Alpha 4 and I think it's losing players.

I like this game A LOT, but I'm already not playing anymore because I can't, I will be lucky if I can deploy 3 games in League 4 and, if I lose, I don't have motivation to improve the AI because I'll have to wait maybe days until I find another match in the same map and I won't even remember what I changed exactly.

Also the limit of matches per player could be set to 100 or we could be able to deploy AIs and leave it running until someone beats it. What is the motivation behind this limit? I remember it didn't exist in Alpha 4.

ntk
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#13 » 02 Dec 2016, 20:45

When private and gost games will be active more people come.

I don't like league, i don't like develop more ai togheter an play some map max 1-2 times in a day. Need 3-4 days for test any 'single' AI it's frustanting.

More if u need fix the ai for more maps.

pier4r
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#14 » 02 Dec 2016, 21:07

NullPointer wrote:What is the motivation behind this limit? I remember it didn't exist in Alpha 4.


To avoid feeding points from an account to another. But the idea of deploying an AI and let it "play", even under the limit of 1h, until gets beaten once is a nice idea that I think GFX can reasonability implement.

Like

Code: Select all

- deploy match
- if match played and won, redeploy match with winning AI for player X.
- otherwise not


I guess no player will be "pissed" if his AI, although older than his current ideas, will continuously win.

For the amount of games, we can maybe check the dataset and the games by day. In the case instead of losing players would be better to relax a bit the rules.
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GFX47
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#15 » 02 Dec 2016, 22:35

I worked on the new matchmaking system today. It will be based on heuristic instead of filtering, which means that you will have access to potentially all the available matches with a priority depending on several parameters like match creation time, ranking, ip, last played matches and even league (you will hit other leagues in last resort).
It involves a mathematical formula that will need several iterations to be satisfying, I'm counting on you to give me feedback once it's enabled ;)

pier4r
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#16 » 02 Dec 2016, 22:47

GFX47 wrote:It involves a mathematical formula that will need several iterations to be satisfying, I'm counting on you to give me feedback once it's enabled ;)


You as "you all" or you as "you pier4r"?

Great job anyway, now I'm curious about the formula but we will see!
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GFX47
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#17 » 02 Dec 2016, 23:04

You guys ;)

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NullPointer
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#18 » 02 Dec 2016, 23:43

Nice! Let us know when it's enabled.

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GFX47
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#19 » 02 Dec 2016, 23:52

It will be once 5.3 is released.

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Kanishka
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Re: Incoming changes

Post#20 » 04 Dec 2016, 13:42

Yes! That's what we Alpha Testers are here for. You can count on us for feedback.

P.S. 'Kay. I'm back on the forum. No PM now, Dr D.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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