Seasonal rankings reset

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GFX47
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Seasonal rankings reset

Post#1 » 27 Mar 2017, 13:53

So once I'll have a solution for the leveling problem and everyone starts with the same features in gold league, what about introducing a season system that would imply a ranking reset?
It could be tested on a monthly basis at first.

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#2 » 27 Mar 2017, 14:09

Sure! I love the idea. More challenge is always welcome, and non-active players will be quickly removed from their thrones. :D
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#3 » 27 Mar 2017, 14:58

Well itll be a kinda bad idea for
Reset to 1000 every month,

Gfx can you do a little research about the Clash of clans montly ranking reset?(I abandoned this years ago)

Heres an overview; i think they use elo too
    Leagues (inaccurate)
  • bronze (1-2-3)
    Lets say -999
  • gold (1-2-3)
    1000-1799
  • crystal (1-2-3)
    1800-2599
  • champion (1-2-3)
    2600-3399
  • titan (1-2-3)
    3400-4199

    Now heres theyre top league
  • Legendary league
  • #1 player gets rewarded
    4200+
    (K factor is +5)
    Max score obatined as far as i know, did not exceed
    5020


    Heres the reset affects everyone.
    Everyone below legends, a monthly reset hits.
    Everyone will get kicked out on their respected leagues,

    Example;
    Player A titan league (3800)

    After reset;
    Player A no league (3800)
    -doesnt show in ang leaderboards
    But heres a thing,
    when he does something that moves his score,
    he will instantly get promoted from his previous league

    Player A titan league (3802)



    Legends league is different(most brutal fights, top most league)

    Player T legends #1 5010

    Reset starts;

    Player T Legends 4200
    And everyone else on legends too. And will compete again for #1 spot for the big bounty.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#4 » 27 Mar 2017, 14:59

GFX47 wrote:So once I'll have a solution for the leveling problem and everyone starts with the same features in gold league, what about introducing a season system that would imply a ranking reset?
It could be tested on a monthly basis at first.


Hmm I'm not 100% in.

While it is not bad, I see some problems:

- the poor players that are playing starting from less than a week before the reset, would play always in a bad moment (they are improving, but then, poof, all gone).

- going through all the xp levels every month or so would be personally annoying. It means that I have to keep even more versions of the AI to fight with limited ai controls and the AI list is not that manageable already when there are many AIs.

- If the XP levels are retained, it would mean more obliteration of newcomers, that would be frustrated to see so many games with players having snipers and so in lower leagues.

- for records level (tournaments and stats), the first week or so after the reset would have always "unusable" stats because those would be created in a moment of big change for all the players.

- the leagues would be filled slowly, instead of being stable as they are now, so for a while after a new league is populated, the activity would be too low.

For example grand master league started with round about 60 players and reached 150 players after 2 weeks, now it is stable.

My personal view is "not in this way", unless someone is able to show me the benefits.

Questions: why do you want to reset the scores? Why do you want to make a reset? If we know the reasons, maybe we could brainstorm ideas.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#5 » 27 Mar 2017, 16:04

The condition for seasonal resets to work is obviously that everyone starts with all the features unlocked.
XP will actually never be reset.

The interest is to find a workaround to the elo inflation, renew the challenge for established players and give a better chance to new comers.

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#6 » 27 Mar 2017, 17:12

Okay, so heres the thing from the COC rankings adapted to Gladiabots.


PS= promotion score
DS= demotion score


    Bronze to Masters
  • PS =Value
  • DS =V

    in this leagues players are,
    -learning
    -training
    -exploring
    -etc.

Code: Select all

Heres how reset affects these players;
None top league
 -removed from any lader
 
 Before
  Player 1 masters (V=1200)
   
 After reset
  -no activity
      Player 1 no league (V=1200)
  -with activity
      Would join a league based on ELO




Once entered the Grand masters League;
DS = 1300


Code: Select all

Heres how the reset affects players;
Top league
 -Removed from any lader
 -ELO score would reset to DS (1300)
 
 Before;
  Player #1 grand (2100)
  Player #2 grand (2050)
  Player #3 grand (2030)
  Player #4 grand (2000)
  Player #5 grand (1980)
  ....and so on
 
  After reset;
  -no activity
  Player #1 no league (1300)
  Player #2 no league (1300)
  Player #3 nk league (1300)
  Player #4 no league (1300)
  Player #5 no league (1300)
 
 -with activity
 Player #2 grand (1300)
 Player #3 grand (1300)
 Player #5 grand (1300)
 Player #8 grand (1300)
 ...... Everyone follows thats inside the grand masters.


But maybe we need a 1600 promotion league.(grand master<1600League)


*note
On clash of clans
The legendary league is a tournament league.
Season winner #1 would win "gems" (at least 100$ of purchase)

And would have last season winners board


Previous season winners!
player #1 2100
player #2 2087
Player #3 2059
Last edited by ConsciouS-0nE on 27 Mar 2017, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#7 » 27 Mar 2017, 17:41

GFX47 wrote:The condition for seasonal resets to work is obviously that everyone starts with all the features unlocked.
XP will actually never be reset.

The interest is to find a workaround to the elo inflation, renew the challenge for established players and give a better chance to new comers.


Thanks for the clarification. Anyway the elo inflation is not a problem. It is a small problem to compare scores that happened at different times, but it will be always an approximation because one has a different opponent pool in different moments.

For newcomers, I do not see why there is a better chance (could you elaborate more on this?). The tactics will not be affected for seasoned players, so who had a good tactic will continue to dominate. Just will obliterate everyone from gold league on.

For the challenge of established players, I would think that private matches would help more, so we can setup tournaments were a player decides to be involved. That would foster the challenge a lot, especially if they are recognized with badges (even just strings) in game and so on.

Or, as I wrote in the next post, you classify the top league as a time limited tournament league (with saved statistics though, otherwise with no hall of fame, makes little sense)
Last edited by pier4r on 27 Mar 2017, 18:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#8 » 27 Mar 2017, 17:45

So I don't agree with the idea of conscious except the tournament league. We could keep all the leagues the same expect the last, that is reset every X days and instead of being unlimited, it is a tournament in itself. The tournament should have recognition somewhere(1), like place in the leaderboard + score and other statistics. After every reset one can start again there with the promotion score (who was demoted, stays in lower leagues).

Then there are problems though. What happens if one has a lucky streak and then stop playing? What happens if a player avoid other strong players due to general low activity? I'm trying to address this with my unavoidable tournaments so if you want ideas I'm open for brainstorming.

(1) already on the stats page should be fine, without complicating the tabs in the game
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#9 » 27 Mar 2017, 18:55

I think reset elo isn't a good thing.

Maybe make season to see the evolution:
%win during the season, points gained/lost, best place during the season... so you can compare your evolution season after season. (I am still comparated which my sport, table tennis, which i think have a good system for rating performance but not sure that i am objective)

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#10 » 27 Mar 2017, 20:40

Clarification: In Clash of Clans you never get ELO Reset. Just Legend League gets reserved to 5000 Trophies. You retain your trophies but get thrown out of the leaderboard at the start of the new session. If you don't play, you're forgotten. Also, CoC leaderboard sucks. Gladiabots ELO is much better summation of strength of a player. Unless someone intentionally loses.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#11 » 27 Mar 2017, 21:22

I like the idea of the monthly reset. With that you can check how far you can get in one month. And through the features are still the same, you can use the same AI and will rise quick at the beginning.

+1

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#12 » 27 Mar 2017, 22:11

Ritter Runkel wrote:I like the idea of the monthly reset. With that you can check how far you can get in one month. And through the features are still the same, you can use the same AI and will rise quick at the beginning.

+1


Rising it is not a problem, is the frustration on the new players. I do believe that the current playerbase would get the same situation in around a week. The problem is that in this week you will have newbies obliterated and not happy.

Less new happy players, smaller future playerbase.

I do think that products are composed by several critical part, and matchmaking (so therefore players with a certain score in a certain league) is one of those crucial ones. I believe it can be done, but it has to be planned a bit and then refined. The top tournament league does not sound bad. A general reset does sound dangerous.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#13 » 27 Mar 2017, 23:54

Rising it is not a problem, is the frustration on the new players.

Perhaps reset to 3 classes:
  • Bronze > Gold
  • Silver > Gold
  • Gold > Gold
  • Platinum > Platinum
  • Diamond > Platinum
  • Master > Master
  • Grand Master > Master
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#14 » 28 Mar 2017, 09:16

Yes your idea is better than "reset everyone to Gold". But if I may say for me if a reset is needed (I don't think so), would be very appealing with the idea of a tournament with limited time.

So.

### Point1 ###
All the leagues up to Master: no change, no reset. (Even someone in Bronze, once the person has a good tactic, will recover in no time, no reset required).
End point1

### Point2 ###
Master league: every X days reset (not long, not short, I would say between 15 and 30 days). All the players that were holding in the league starts from the promotion score.
Before the reset, take the rankings and save it as hall of fame on the stats page (so it is somehow official). So like "season S rankings, click here".
So it is a challenge for good players to achieve the top position and "winning" the season, or even just to show good rankings.

While this would finally create the first built in "unavoidable tournament score based" there are quite some problems to fix nevertheless.
For whatever position, one should ensure that players play against each other and play enough. Aside from considering the obvious case of the top1, consider the case that someone has a lucky streak and gets 1800 points, but in reality is not better than another fellow with 1650 points. So after reaching 1800 points one does not play anymore and so it looks like better than the guy with 1650. That's not fair.

The first idea to solve this is to tag the players in the rankings.

The stats page has already the activity history for every player. So it can be checked, at the end of the season, if a player played at least G1 games in total, and at least G2 games per day for D days, then it is valid, otherwise the player stays in the rankings but is greyed out as not having played enough.

A real example. Suppose the season last 21 days (so 3 weeks).
The condition to be valid at the end of the season are the following;
- If a player was in the league for the last D days (imagine it was promoted a bit after the season started), it is expected to play D*10 games in total in the league. So an average of 10 games per day. So if a player starts from the first day of the season in the league, it is expected to play 210 games in total. If one enters 6 days before the season end, 60 games. Rationale for this: avoiding players reaching a good score and then be idle. Actually 210 games for 21 days is still quite a little amount of games. Maybe it should be an average of 20 games per day or more.

- a player is expected to play 10 games at least every 3 days. So it is not possible to have a period of inactivity or low activity of 4 days. So if a player plays on day1 50 games, on day2 30 games, on das3 no games, on day4 5 games, on day6 no games, on day7 4 games, is disqualified (or greyed out). Rationale for this: avoiding that a player plays only in a certain period of the season, the player has to be always active

Then comes the problem of "avoidance". Is it ok that the player exploits the matchmaking to avoid players that he knows that he may not win? (with the low activity in grand master league, it is possible to do this to a certain extent). So one can set a rule like: after considering players valid according to the rules above, those players are still valid if they played at least M matches against each other.

Example: So player1, player2, player3, player4 have started in the league from day1. They have played 210 games at least. They never had a period of more than 3 days with less than 10 games. So they are valid in terms of activity. Nevertheless they have to be played at least 30 games against each other (note 1, note 2). So all players satisfy this except for player4 that played only 25 games against player3, 20 games against player2. So the final standings has only player1, player2 and player3 not greyed out, while player4 is keeping is position but greyed out.

In general there are a lot of conditions to check at the end of the season to have a ranking that is fair and not made of people that played in a spotty way. Otherwise one could just make a simpler season based on the current way the rankings are devised and stop, but in my opinion it would have less value because people can exploit flaws.
For example in the period t800/nullpointer and tct were active, both of them were at the top of the leaderboard and met each other like, 4 times? That's not enough.

note1: this does not solve the problem that, for example, player1 meet player2 only at the start of the season and not at the end. Player1 can be stronger than player2 at the start of the season, but at the end of the season player2 would be stronger, but player2 misses the opportunity to show this.
note 2: this would be very hard to satisfy for late entrees in the league.
### End point2 ###
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#15 » 31 Mar 2017, 14:17

Please please it was just an idea for me. And i didnt even think of it.
Dont throw rocks at me.

And please
*let the dev do what he wants to the game, do not recurve a plan on something for just a personal use like external comparisons of players.*
No hard feeling just saying,
One should adopt to the game not the game adopting for a third party things.




Heres why reseting everything to gold each month is quite off.


Imagine a baby,
That baby can grow from 1-100

But if you put a limit to it where it resets at 50
That baby would live like
1-50-1-50-1-50 which is unnatural to 1-100.

That would only result to 2;
Every lifetime would be

Always different.
Always the same.



Heres the version of THAT IDEA above.(calm down just as idea, did i force to implement it? No.)

Let the baby grow to 1-100 which is (gold-masters)

Everytime it gets 101 theres a new challange coming, its growth is limited to 101-150 rather than lets say
"Nullpointer is 170 year old"

So lifetime sequence would live like,
1-100-101-150-101-150-101-150...
So it lived a life before a loop.




And also its just the same as @lubeno -_- ,(thats worldspread use of a tournament and proper..
I dont care if it sucks i didnt made it)

Its just the grandmaster that would get demoted to promotion score.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#16 » 31 Mar 2017, 17:53

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:And please
*let the dev do what he wants to the game, do not recurve a plan on something for just a personal use like external comparisons of players.*
No hard feeling just saying,
One should adopt to the game not the game adopting for a third party things.


What do you mean with this? I'm not sure I can follow.

No rocks at you, just I did not like all your idea, just parts as you my not like mine.

I just try to do: if I say "no" I have to come with a concrete proposal back. Therefore I write wall of text.
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#17 » 31 May 2017, 10:44

How about this?

For any two constants integer N and real T:

  • New players start at bronze.
  • Periodic reset to gold, for some players (see below).
  • Reset doesn't affect player who (has less than N matches in total or started less than T days ago) and is below platinum.

If there has been a reset since player last played, this fact is displayed extremely prominently to avoid confusion. This system is described to the user the first time they play career mode, and should ideally end with something friendly like, "Good luck, and have fun!"

The aim of this idea is to avoid confusing and frustrating new users. I think though that editor lag and lack of editor features like multiple copy or delete might be the bigger source of frustration anyway.
N and T may require some tuning over time, of course.

EDIT: I thought the previous posts were 31 May (today) but they were 31 Mar. So I guess this thread is pretty dead.

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#18 » 31 May 2017, 11:02

2 months dead.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#19 » 03 Oct 2017, 19:11

Bump. Perhaps resetting the scores 1, 2 or 4 times a year would raise activity.
I would play more. ;)
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Re: Seasonal rankings reset

Post#20 » 03 Oct 2017, 23:51

LuBeNo wrote:Bump. Perhaps resetting the scores 1, 2 or 4 times a year would raise activity.
I would play more. ;)


And why would you play more? With all the contributions you did on the wiki about the score, you would already know that the score would settle quite quickly how it was (maybe not the exact score, but relative differences will be similar), it would just be a farm fest at the start since the poor newcomers will be paired with grandmasters.

For the "badge" part we have tournaments, so it is not stricly needed.
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