New player points/level system

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GFX47
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#21 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:33

True :/
Maybe a fix amount of points per victory?

pier4r
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#22 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:33

Well two possible quick fixes.

One, that would explode the xp value anyway unless normalization is used, is to give as reward the entire opponent elo in case of victory.

So nullpointer will have a lot of xp, the ones playing (and winning) a lot too. For example nullpointer wins me when I have 1720? He gets +1720 points. So blitz and Ritter will still hold more xp but no one is stimulated to lose, rather to play.

Another is to fix the winning points with the K factor like an absolute value. In League 4 the K factor is 25. When players have the same score the winner gets, if I'm not mistaken, 12 points.

So when one wins 12 or more points, those points are added to the xp. If one wins less (because the opponent score is way lower) "kfactor- won points are added". So when nullpointer gets +1 on the score he gets +24 on the XP.

This does not damage players at the top and foster playing
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#23 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:44

GFX47 wrote:True :/


I officially protest. When I describe a problem I'm not doing it to complain, especially when well known formulas are involved. (like the elo one)

If the objective is to make ranks to foster, through statistics and unlocking stuff, players to play, then the ideas exposed before (plus the one of fixed points) are working because they do not discourage winning.

In particular i like this idea (exposed before)

Code: Select all

if ( ceiling(kfactor / 2)  > playerelodelta) then
  playerxp += kfactor - playerelodelta
    # huge boost to those that wins matches that they should win.
else
  playerxp += playerelodelta
    # natural elo boost to those that win matches that they are mean to lose
end if


If the objective is a bit different, the formula can change. I am willing to help :)
Last edited by pier4r on 17 Jan 2017, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#24 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:45

pier4r wrote:Well two possible quick fixes.

One, that would explode the xp value anyway unless normalization is used, is to give as reward the entire opponent elo in case of victory.

So nullpointer will have a lot of xp, the ones playing (and winning) a lot too. For example nullpointer wins me when I have 1720? He gets +1720 points. So blitz and Ritter will still hold more xp but no one is stimulated to lose, rather to play.

Another is to fix the winning points with the K factor like an absolute value. In League 4 the K factor is 25. When players have the same score the winner gets, if I'm not mistaken, 12 points.

So when one wins 12 or more points, those points are added to the xp. If one wins less (because the opponent score is way lower) "kfactor- won points are added". So when nullpointer gets +1 on the score he gets +24 on the XP.

This does not damage players at the top and foster playing


I like the first solution (win opponent's elo score).
And I don't say that because it's the easiest one by far. ^^'

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#25 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:47

GFX47 wrote:
I like the first solution (win opponent's elo score).
And I don't say that because it's the easiest one by far. ^^'


I'm glad I could help. Anyway normalize the score (maybe round ( elo_won / 10 ) or ( elo_won / 100 ) ) otherwise the XP will easily touch millions immediately. For example nullpointer will likely have 1 million points or more.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#26 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:48

pier4r wrote:
GFX47 wrote:True :/


I officially protest. When I describe a problem I'm not doing it to complain, especially when well known formulas are involved. (like the elo one)


I meant "True, my idea is flawed".

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#27 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:50

So nullpointer will have a lot of xp, the ones playing (and winning) a lot too. For example nullpointer wins me when I have 1720? He gets +1720 points. So blitz and Ritter will still hold more xp but no one is stimulated to lose, rather to play.

Another is to fix the winning points with the K factor like an absolute value. In League 4 the K factor is 25. When players have the same score the winner gets, if I'm not mistaken, 12 points.

So when one wins 12 or more points, those points are added to the xp. If one wins less (because the opponent score is way lower) "kfactor- won points are added". So when nullpointer gets +1 on the score he gets +24 on the XP.

This does not damage players at the top and foster playing


But in these 2 approaches a higher level player will level up faster when it should be the opposite.

I can't think of a good solution for this, except giving an absolute value for each win.
Last edited by NullPointer on 17 Jan 2017, 17:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#28 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:50

pier4r wrote:Another idea that could be introduced, borrowed from other games, is the skill of the bot. Like in world of tanks the crew of the vehicle gets better while playing, the same could happen to the bots. Like the more they play the more accurate they are (but a little more, for example up to +2% accuracy).

I don't like that idea. Image having a small chance to knock out the attacking figure or to take two actions in one turn in chess. World of Tanks uses a random number generator to calculate accuracy, etc, while this game doesn't. A small chance increase in that game doesn't change much, since the RNG gives a lot of randomness, but in this game that would be a constant advantage.

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#29 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:51

Updating the stats pages with the raw elo rating to have a better idea...

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#30 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:52

NullPointer wrote:
But in these 2 approaches a higher level player will level up faster when it should be the opposite.

I can't think of a good solution for this, except giving an absolute value for each win.


Not sure to follow, what do you mean?

In all the games that I saw, it is not that high level players get less XP, is that to fill a rank the XP required is astronomical.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#31 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:54

Trigary wrote:I don't like that idea. Image having a small chance to knock out the attacking figure or to take two actions in one turn in chess. World of Tanks uses a random number generator to calculate accuracy, etc, while this game doesn't. A small chance increase in that game doesn't change much, since the RNG gives a lot of randomness, but in this game that would be a constant advantage.


You have a point. Anyway world of tanks advertised to use random numbers but actually were a bit easier. Computing a Gauss curve as they claim to do is not good in real time computations (even using the central limit theorem to use easier random variables ).
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#32 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:01

GFX47 wrote:Updating the stats pages with the raw elo rating to have a better idea...


Done.

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#33 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:02

If big numbers are not a problem, for me it is ok (otherwise division by X + rounding the result). Even if I still would like to understand if it is wanted that high level players should progress slowly while new players quickly.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#34 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:04

Pier4r, you're right, the first approach you suggested looks good.

XP earned = ELO score of the opponent

If you're 1700 playing against 1600-1800, you will get XP faster then a 1000 playing against 900-1100, BUT you will need much more XP to level up.

Also if your AIs are good it means you will level up faster.

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#35 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:08

And yes Xp points are the sort of reward to keep a player loyal to the account (and let him play to not fall behind). The psychology of gamification is fascinating.

edit: could be that in the stat page who wins is always on the right now? Nice touch. Edit2: no, it is not, was a coincidence.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#36 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:14

pier4r wrote:If big numbers are not a problem, for me it is ok (otherwise division by X + rounding the result).


It would be easier for the player to understand where the points come from.

pier4r wrote:Even if I still would like to understand if it is wanted that high level players should progress slowly while new players quickly.


The higher the player level (the value, not the skill), the harder it should be to level up.
Like you can level up to level 2 or 3 in your first session but you will have to fight for several days to go from level 9 to 10.
Does it answer your question?

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#37 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:20

Yes, but for this the obvious mechanism used since decades is: the next level, the more the xp. Even better when leveling is not linear, otherwise it becomes boring

Like:
lvl1: 10000 (10 victories against 1000 players)
lvl2: 250k
lvl3: 750k
lvl4: 1500k
lvl5: 5000k
lvl6: 15m
lvl7: you get the idea.

game world examples: world of tanks

http://www.wotdb.info/#country=france

See the experience points that every tank needs to be unlocked. From 115 to 200.000
Last edited by pier4r on 17 Jan 2017, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New player points/level system

Post#38 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:21

That's it.

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#39 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:35

Hey, umm... I have a problem. I should have more XP since this is my 3rd account and... Well... I have a lot more experience than indicated by my current account.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: New player points/level system

Post#40 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:37

Kanishka wrote:Hey, umm... I have a problem. I should have more XP since this is my 3rd account and... Well... I have a lot more experience than indicated by my current account.


If the accounts are not linked, it is unlikely that you can sum them.
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