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Re: AI size limits

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 12:42
by Ritter Runkel
GFX47 wrote:@Ritter Runkel You can play the unlimited mode only.
And players can actually play several modes.


If there are enough players that could be a solution

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 12:44
by pier4r
Anyway for me there is no problem. Since the introduction of private and unranked matches we know we can participate simultaneously to many leagues.

Add presets (so one can switch between bot setups easily on a map) and there you go, the amount of AIs is not a problem.

Then for me would be fine to have

10 nodes max
25 nodes max
50 nodes max
100 nodes max
unlimited

(because after 100 nodes the complexity is already high enough that, well, it does not matter much).

The last one would be like now, while the first two will be very appealing for beginners and those that do not want to spend too much time.

Removing the unlimited part would make the game hard for people (like me) that have ongoing projects on large AIs (I have around 1000 nodes in 4 AIs, ~250 per class). The unlimited category will teach problems like: iterations, versioning, maintainability, readability, reuse of code and so on.

note: without presets it would work too, but I assume a lot of players would stick with a mode to avoid the tedious part of changing bot setups.


Oh yes I was forgetting. OF COURSE there should be in place different leaderboards for all the different size limits. Otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever, it will be just a chaotic mess.

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 13:19
by MrChris
+++ what ritter said

I have a lot to say about these proposed changes. But I don't have time right now so I'll just give it in dribs and drabs:

"Beginners would most likely try lower complexities first and when they feel confident enough, could try higher ones. "

The difference between the performance of the higher and lower players will be even more pronounced in these lower node-count modes. The top players have usually played the game a lot more than the lower players so they understand what the key elements to success are, so using fewer nodes they will be able to create a much more powerful AI than the lower players. So unless you stop the top players from playing in these reduced node-count modes, these beginner players will get beaten even more than they would normally be.

Another concern of mine is that introducing more modes will just reduce the number of players playing in any one mode, which will result in less activity and less games overall

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 14:08
by LuBeNo
GFX47 wrote:@Ritter Runkel You can play the unlimited mode only.
And players can actually play several modes.

I can understand Ritters points. I support the idea as an option. *thumbs_up_icon_missing* ;)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 15:03
by Kanishka
GFX47 wrote:Real game designers (meaning not wannabes like me)


Yeah, right. ;)

Anyway, Node Leagues are cool. Limiting AI sizes is NOT. I don't think there's any elaboration needed. Right?

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 04 Nov 2017, 09:51
by MrChris
On second thoughts, I wouldn't mind these new modes.

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 04 Nov 2017, 10:26
by pier4r
MrChris wrote:On second thoughts, I wouldn't mind these new modes.



haha, damn you Chris. I should farm you as punishment to be funny.

when do I play damn me!

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 04 Nov 2017, 17:02
by Revenge
So...
New features to be added:
Randomly generated maps
Ai node counter
Seperate node leagues
Node leaderboards

Am I missing anything else thats not on Trello? (related to this topic)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 09:24
by sollniss
I would completely ignore this feature and only play the unlimited mode.

The problem with this is that you are dividing the player base even further. Today we have very few active players with unlimited sizes. Now divide that into lets say four size limits. There will quite possible quater the player size in each bracket. I think only the current top players would create AIs for multiple size limits.

This seems like a wrong approach to a problem that I don't think really exists. If you build your AI properly (aka don't put 50 nodes in one subroutine) you shouldn't have any problems debugging.

Adding a feature to comment our AIs would reduce this problem too.

Also from a programmers viewpoint: Creative usually means dirty.

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 15:23
by MrChris
pier4r wrote:
MrChris wrote:On second thoughts, I wouldn't mind these new modes.



haha, damn you Chris. I should farm you as punishment to be funny.

when do I play damn me!


You're right, you farming me would be funny. (BOOOOOOOOM!)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 19:02
by pier4r
MrChris wrote:
You're right, you farming me would be funny. (BOOOOOOOOM!)


We two remember that when I farm you, you beg for mercy. I won't show any.

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 05:35
by darktheatre
i love play yugioh card game. nowadays it has mini yugioh game.people more enjoyable because mini mean decrease difficulty of game concept.

For this situation i suggest make 2 part, first part is unlimited, second part is limited .
so i suggest make 2 part of multiplayer.. example unranked/ranked unlimited & unranked/ranked limited

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 00:53
by GFX47
I'll wait for the game to have more players to work on that.
Although I'm still convinced giving unlimited size from the start was a mistake.
At some point I may have to change things that will make current AIs obsolete though...

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 02:49
by TheGnoo
GFX47 wrote:At some point I may have to change things that will make current AIs obsolete though..


I'm really scared. My AI must have more than 2000 or 3000 nodes atm, and I can't rebuild easely. I would have to create a whole new AI...

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 04:23
by Revenge
TheGnoo wrote:
GFX47 wrote:At some point I may have to change things that will make current AIs obsolete though..


I'm really scared. My AI must have more than 2000 or 3000 nodes atm, and I can't rebuild easely. I would have to create a whole new AI...

It's okay Gnoo. If it ever comes to limits, I will add a screenshot of your ai to the "Hall of Fame" section on the wiki, where your beautiful work-of-art ai can be displayed forever and ever. Alongside all the other ai titans. :')

Also, i feel like you'd kick everyone's asses just as much, if not even more if a limited mode was imposed. Generally, high-count ai players continue to do well even after limits. (Milkhunter, Ox1de, Kidpunisher, Kanishka etc.)

It's the player who builds the ai that makes each ai so individual, unique and great. ;)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 05:48
by mcompany
GFX47 wrote:Although I'm still convinced giving unlimited size from the start was a mistake.
At some point I may have to change things that will make current AIs obsolete though...

I mean, idk if it can really be considered a bad thing. Like, yes, there are many 200+ node giants in the higher leagues (such as The Gnoo, Milkhunter, Ritter, Miojo, Kanishka, and Sollniss), but not all of them are really even in the top 10 or top 15 players, not to mention players like me, who constantly keeps sections merged to keep individual AIs below 150 nodes most of the time, and players like "Good Bot", miojo's secondary account that focused purely on keeping a low node count and still quickly and easily got to a score of 2000. Imo, node count is useless unless you took the time to somehow go through every possible situation... and even then, it would forever to do and would still be forced to make assumption after assumption to cover all of the impossible to detect (yet incredibly important) situations.

So just in general, I feel like having an unlimited section really isn't a bad idea, and that for any player seriously playing for over a month the node count starts to be meaningless compared the the actual logic of the AI. (Also, I'm fairly certain most of the 50 node AIs in that tournament still are comparable or at least almost comparable to that player's main AI)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 10:40
by GFX47
Don't forget the game is still in alpha state ;)

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 09 Nov 2017, 21:10
by Ritter Runkel
GFX47 wrote:At some point I may have to change things that will make current AIs obsolete though...


You already did that before. And after that the game was better then before. Don't be to scared because we will be shocked for a say or a week.

:shock: ... :o ... :cry: ... :idea: ... :roll: ... :D

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 13:41
by pier4r
TheGnoo wrote:
I'm really scared. My AI must have more than 2000 or 3000 nodes atm, and I can't rebuild easely. I would have to create a whole new AI...


what? That is a full job.


"Don't forget the game is still in alpha state"

Let's be honest and say "I keep the alpha tag so I can change things wildly". But you do not necessarily need the alpha tag for that.

Because the game is far from being alpha in my opinion. Alpha games are normally unplayable.

Re: AI size limits

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 15:00
by GFX47
It's still tagged as alpha because there's a lot of missing features, that's the reason.