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Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 03 Sep 2017, 23:11
by TheKidPunisher
Hey guys, i would like to know how many nodes you got and in what league you are. To see if the complexity of the AI influence the position in the ladder.

I actually get a new challenge to myself (i understand that i have to change my mind and not wait the game change for me...), i delete all my AI and re-create a new to see what level i can reach with some nodes limitations (and obviously all assault for me)

(During this time i will maybe play some match with different class with my 2nd account)

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 03 Sep 2017, 23:37
by Miojo
Milkhunter has a tiny AI. That's all that matters.
My AI is big. More than 500 for sure. No time to count it.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 04 Sep 2017, 00:21
by pier4r
Milkhunter is impressive. Under 100 nodes and 2325 of max score.

I float in the range 200-300 .

Surely having account where one limits oneself with nodes is a nice challenge. (and with private matches one can also see if the alternative account is stronger or not than the main account)

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 04 Sep 2017, 18:59
by Jeffrey Harpen
Used to be about 30 a month ago, now I have two sub-AI of which one has 46 nodes. That's true for assault and shotgun AIs. My sniper AI still has 20 and machine gun AI has... 0. ;) I don't use machine guns and still working on better sniper tactics.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 06:44
by TheKidPunisher
So for.the moment, after few days of playing all assault with 10nodes AI, it seems that you can turn around 1500elo and, with some luck in match making, reach the Master league is quite possible (but hard to stay in)
I will continue somedays to confirm then i will go for 20 nodes and for beginers i will post the AI here if they want to test their AI against this one.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 15:16
by sollniss ... n-15-nodes

So I guess this is similar to the proposed idea and I would like to discuss this a bit.

In my opinion this is a terrible idea. GFX argues that you are supposed to optimize your AI to make a smaller, more effective one. But actually this just punishes players that optimized their AIs and promotes dump ones.

Take the shooting module for example. You can have a very granular targetting for going from high priority short range enemies, to mid, to long range. Or you can just always attack the closest enemy. That's at least 20 to 50 nodes vs 1 node. Now GFX is telling us the 1 node AI is actually more "optimized"?

Another example: Some people use 1v1 modules (Me, Ritter, Nullpointer) and these only trigger at certain times (usually 1v1's duh) so 99% of the time these nodes are skipped. So are we now punished for trying to get the maximum out of our AI's?

Fun additions like victory dances would also be punished.

You'd always have to think "do I play optimal and my AI becomes super slow, or do I play lazy and dumb to get a faster AI". Either option sounds really unfun to me.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 16:32
by TheKidPunisher
Your analyse is interesting. I remember this idea and was not for cause it limit to much the possibilities available for players (fun addition mainly)

Now, as we have tournament in test progress, i think it could be fun to propose some tournament with limit of nodes.

Now i will just clear something,
Here i do not ask for any change on the game.
I just challenge myself (if some people want too no problem) and try to get the highest average elo (respecting the challenge).
And then i share my experience (if some people try the challenge they can discuss about it here)

I will share soon what i have used as AI during the last weeks

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 13 Sep 2017, 14:00
by TheKidPunisher
So let's go!

First of all, i thought my elo score would fall far away from the Master league where I play in normal time.
In fact after some weeks of playing with this 10 nodes AI all Assault i maintain my elo to 1500 ±100.

Second, i appreciate that i fought against more player (diamond league has 2 time more player than master league) and i see a lot of new opponents. It was fun to see their evolution as i do not modify that much my AI (with 10 nodes you cant really make big changes)

Here what AI i used:
Screenshot_2017-09-11-18-14-20.png (122.64 KiB) Viewed 2688 times

So 10 nodes is sufficient to stay in diamond, with luck of match pairing i can reach master but i get rapidly demoted.
Results: 177 matches 92 wins 85 loses; elo at start: 1503 elo at end: 1489 ; elo max reached: 1612 elo inf reached: 1409

Now, i will add nodes 5 by 5 and see with how many nodes (minimum) i can stay in Master league (still with all Assault)

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 13 Sep 2017, 17:42
by pier4r
nice approach. But that also show that we need tough players!

Another idea would be, what happens when for every bot class you do an AI of 10 nodes. How high you can hold. That is quite interesting.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 19:37
by TheKidPunisher
At first sight, 5 nodes more make diamond league looks pretty easy.

Even our dev lost on the first 15 nodes AI all assault (vengeance for the 10 nodes he won against)

Let see in some weeks how far it can reach before modify or add 5 more nodes

Edit: Glad to see that he was maybe testing something, he just rekt my bots on the same map i just beat him...

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 20:15
by GFX47
I'm not only creating bugs in the game...

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 20:33
by TheKidPunisher
GFX47 wrote:I'm not only creating bugs in the game...


Good to see you playing, i think it is good to not always develop the game and correct bugs (you will think your game is always bugging^^)
Sometimes take a break and just play!

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 21:04
by pier4r
Not only. The more he gets in the hard leagues, the more he will recognize by himself what is needed in the game (I mean in terms of subtle things that are obvious only when one plays over and over).

Also, he does not create only bugs, he also creates elo points.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 20 Sep 2017, 04:54
by Kanishka
GFX47 wrote:I'm not only creating bugs in the game...


Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 20 Sep 2017, 04:56
by Kanishka
Kanishka wrote:
GFX47 wrote:I'm not only creating bugs in the game...


Though of course you DO create the occasional bug. :P

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 20 Sep 2017, 20:41
by TheKidPunisher
So i got as fast promoted in Master as i got demoted from it,

This new 5 nodes implantatino doesn't work to stay in Master, i will try another possibility for this 5 new nodes before add 5 others.

The results are maybe falsified due to the ramdom of map selection:
I play 56 matchs, so in average 7 time each maps; But here what i got:
SW: 13matches
SYP: 8
MP: 13
LR: 2
BS: 0
ST: 10
CoD: 7

As far as i know, Barred spiral is one of the worst map for all assault (with KingMaker)
And i do not played them that much...
So the result should have to be worst.
Results: 56 matches 28wins 3draws 25 loses; elo at start: 1489 elo at end: 1516 ; elo max reached: 1658 elo inf reached: 1508

I do not put the AI screenshot cause it doesnt succeed to "stay in Master league"

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 27 Sep 2017, 01:52
by eleazr
That's an interesting idea to limit the number of nodes. I've been playing with all assault for a challenge and I'm holding lower/mid master league with a 67 node AI for general use with a slightly modified AI for "Split Team" and another for "Circle of Death."

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 28 Sep 2017, 02:58
by eleazr
so I put together a 10 node AI that beat my 67 node one with Assaults vs. Assaults... I think it suffers a bit bringing it into the wilds though...
Screenshot (10).png
Screenshot (10).png (67.15 KiB) Viewed 2568 times

Edit: Just got kicked out of master running a slightly improved version of this AI, so it's not up to master league.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 02 Oct 2017, 18:59
by Revenge
I'm in diamond rank and run 79 node ai. I don't think I've ever used more than 100.

Re: Minimum nodes/league

Posted: 11 Oct 2017, 19:26
by TheKidPunisher
I still cant stay in Master with a new 15nodes AI versions;
i havent stats for this one, sry

I will pass to 20nodes, and i will now use also the new features added recently (counting mainly)