alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

pier4r
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alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#1 » 13 Mar 2017, 08:48

In alpha 6.x, with the absence of "self attacking" and "currently targeted" tagging to keep track of the enemy was crucial.

Alpha 7.x introduced a lot of powerful filters and some people started to go tagless. I remember I used in alpha 6.x two tags for aiming, one to lock a target, another to mark targets going out of range with low shield to avoid dancers (or better to avoid targeting them again due to the priority of low shields in my aim modules).

In alpha 7.x I slowly dropped the tag for locking the target, due to the filter "Self action: selfAttacking". Nevertheless I kept the anti dancing tags for quite a while, until recently where the mcompany approach (he was tagless almost from the start of alpha 7.x) started to interest me too much. Now I have a plan to remove the tags also for dancers, that do take quite a bit of time for every bot especially in long range fights and also produce sometimes unwanted situations.

How is the situations for top players (say, 1500+ points)?

Do you use tagging (or do you consider tags) in the aim modules? Aside for exceptions that make sense once in a while, I mean in the normal execution of your tactic.

As I said, I am still using the tag "avoid dancers" but I plan to remove it (and burn points in the process), since avoiding dancers in a tagless way does not seem so easy at first and may lower the efficiency in some cases, this is valid for my approach of course. What about you? Do you select targets also using (or avoiding) tags or not?
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#2 » 13 Mar 2017, 08:56

Hi Pier.

I don't use tags for aiming. I tried to use it for focused fire as you described it. I also tried it for wave like rushing when enemy was fleeing from mid to long (set a public tag and everybody not to be involved to much on a 1vs1 dogfight started rushing).

But all these weren't as good as rushing and aiming with action filters. Especially with dancers. They only dance because you didn't follow them. If you follow, they don't stop fleeing and you gain ground

I would try to get rid of it or find another use for the tags.

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#3 » 13 Mar 2017, 09:16

pier4r wrote: Nevertheless I kept the anti dancing tags for quite a while, until recently where the mcompany approach (he was tagless almost from the start of alpha 7.x) started to interest me too much.

Actually, I started going tagless during 6.1 went I continued to fail to find a suitable replacement for currently targeted and a lot of other problems I kept running into. It's just that since 7.x, I don't need to worry about how underpowered/vulnerable tags are because I have action filters (but gfx, please figure out the bug that makes one team not behave the same as the other, it is really bothering me to lose because my AI doesn't do what I coded it to do)

As for tags in regards to aiming (and tags in general for that matter), I currently have found no major methods of using tags to do something better than using action filters (or even doing something with tags that is impossible otherwise). However I do think it is possible that a useful implementation of tags can exist, and have alright noticed plenty of situations where tags could easily be used with no real harm done if it wasn't for it relying on updating information (which would require removing the tag eventually, which is much harder to do safely than setting a tag)

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#4 » 13 Mar 2017, 09:42

I experimented with tags for aiming when I first unlocked tags, but felt the time you lose managing the tags hurt way more than any benefits I was getting so removed it pretty quickly.

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#5 » 13 Mar 2017, 10:45

Am I top player?, can I post here?

When were testing tagging after its release, I use to make that fucos fire from th absence of "currently targeted".
But when alot of player has adopted and evolved to dancing, theres no way for its winning.

Fron delete everything and start from scratch, i found my bots got stronger without tagging.
I use tagging but its just for counting, or fix points and its never deployed in any part of the game rather than start-up.(very fist tick of the game)


The very top condition for start up "One time condition"(doesnt happen again)

Condition if > any enemy > not attacking
+
Condition if > any enemy > not moving
+
Any more specific conditions needed.
Do this to 1+ bots you can tag 1+ entities at once for just a milisecond delay at game start-up.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#6 » 13 Mar 2017, 10:48

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:Am I top player?, can I post here?

Everyone that is top20 I think.

But when you say that "I'm 8" in your signature, does it mean that you are 8 years old or you are 8th in the leaderboard?
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#7 » 13 Mar 2017, 13:49

pier4r wrote:
ConsciouS-0nE wrote:Am I top player?, can I post here?

Everyone that is top20 I think.

But when you say that "I'm 8" in your signature, does it mean that you are 8 years old or you are 8th in the leaderboard?


He's 12th in the leaderboard. :/
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#8 » 13 Mar 2017, 15:41

Anyway, as I'm 1500+, I can reply! As you guys already know, I don't use Tags anywhere. Ahem. Implemented that in an experimental Module, screwed up, and archived it, so it doesn't count. As for SG dancers, they are handled by a primitive Anti-Dancer Module. I once had 2 Anti-Dancer Modules, but I deleted them. 2, to take care of Mid-Long and Long-Out Dancers.
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#9 » 14 Mar 2017, 10:53

So....if you guys aint using tags --- how else are you ensuring your sniper / Machine gunner doesn't swap targets mid burst/aim?

Since the removal of current target I've been doing:

(leftmost node) Attack in range enemy team tag A
Exclusive team Tag weakest in range enemy
Exclusive team Tag sniper in range enemy
etc etc

Are you guys just starting an aiming tree with something like "if not attacking..." ?


I wonder what approach is better? I mean, my way of doing things gives a sideways benefit of helping out with focus fire, in exchange for a few ticks.

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#10 » 14 Mar 2017, 11:11

Hamster wrote:So....if you guys aint using tags --- how else are you ensuring your sniper / Machine gunner doesn't swap targets mid burst/aim?

Several possibilities. You can attack weakest/closest/whoever. And when he's fleeing, don't stop shooting at least with one bot. It could be that he dances long-out-of-range, but not midrange. I wouldn't use weakest. Low shield enemy at the border is less valuable then a close enemy not able to flee fast enough when you focus fire.

Hamster wrote:I wonder what approach is better? I mean, my way of doing things gives a sideways benefit of helping out with focus fire, in exchange for a few ticks.


You can easily test it. Implement another attack module and let them fight against each other. It depends on many factors like your retreatment, pushing strategy, etc.

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#11 » 14 Mar 2017, 14:11

I use:

Attack Enemy Closest Not Out Of Range Self Attacking
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#12 » 17 Mar 2017, 13:05

Hy, as some players prevent me from becoming top player, I will speak as "nearly top player".

I was very very excited about unlocking team tags... just to find that what Wozza told - maintanance of such AIs was too complex. I wanted to play with my 4 basic AIs, but I felt that tags are good at some maps and not so good in other maps (7 woners vs death circle), so currently all my bots are tagless using filters.

I am still playing with 'group bots' - that is pairs or triplets of bots acting as one, for them I use tagging, but they are not near any level of rediness to go on stage, as they even can't wreck my main AIs which lately is being wrecked by anyone who accidently stumbles upon me.

So... looks like tagging is either in the need to rethink, or some revamp. On the ohter hands, might be they where not meant to be used as we HOPE them need to be used. There is one map specific AI which uses tagging for very very strange reason - and that I won't reveal, as the AI gives me close to 100% win rate on that map. *and that is rittel runkel fault*

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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#13 » 19 Mar 2017, 22:07

So I'm going tagless to keep shooting enemies. Of course there may be dancing cases where I'm at loss (when two enemies go inside and outside the long range in synch). Anyway apart from bugs there and there I have to say that it seems feasible. I do not notice drop in performance using the proper filters (if the enemy is attacking or fleeing, then it is a good target) but I still feel that I created many subtle conflicts that have to be exposed by defeats and fixed after the analysis of those.
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Re: alpha 7.x , tagging for aiming purposes by top players. How many are doing it?

Post#14 » 24 Mar 2017, 14:53

Im currently 1800+ and I use tagging for aiming only in very specific and rare situations.

If my SG starts 1vs1 with best chances to win, although there are multiple enemies, it tags the victim to let allays know NOT to shoot against this one.

If some allay is seriously in danger mostly because of only one enemy, it may tag this enemy to get support by other allays.

Mostly I use tagging for start up situation, usually if an action should only be executet once or if there is only one enemy left or to count. To avoid dancers I also use the ifselfattacing method mentioned. Tagging is just too slow imo. I try to switch back to using multiple conditions rather than tagging whenever possible.
Especially in Mind Game this may result in win or loose.

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