Node count/complexity.

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#21 » 19 Apr 2017, 07:57

mcompany wrote:What I think it the deal is that below Grand Master league, the skill levels are kept to around the same position, but once they get to Grand Master league, the safety net comes off as everyone 1700 and up are becoming more and more experienced at the game. Plus, in Grand Master league, a lot of the top ideas only circulate within the league, and few spill out below Master league because there are very little matches between the leagues


I think the same but then you factor the interleague matches. So in master league one can potentially play up to 1600 players, that should be hard enough.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

User avatar
neoliminal
Algorithm
Algorithm
Posts: 78

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#22 » 20 Apr 2017, 11:29

pier4r wrote:I'm always a bit surprised by the reports like "I was doing fine then grand master league happened and I got obliterated". I wonder what they are doing in master league to not step up the challenge.


What I've found is that there's a huge difference between people who are in the Master League and the Grand Master League. Just from a basic ELO difference I'm losing 2-7 points per game right now, just playing around to see who is there and what I'm going to need to prepare to actually compete on that level.

The strategies in Grand Master League are refined, they are more than one level above Master League. I would say there are probably three levels in Grand Master League at the moment, in terms of skill/experience/ability. I'm on the lowest tier, you have the "top 10" type players who are pushing the envelope of what is possible (although I think there are more than 10 of them), then you have the good players who have decent AI and keep up with trends. These three tiers don't need to be separated, IMHO. I like playing top players, it shows me things I didn't see before and never would have seen in Master League.

I'm only dealing with the fact that I need to spend some time and effort that I can't budget right now into making the game fun again. I was winning in Master League, now I'm losing (almost) every game, even on maps I thought I had optimized strategies for.

I'm not sure how to explain it better than that. I've certainly stopped playing as much because I know that in order to starting winning again I'm going to have to put in some hours of work that I don't have and watching my bots get blown away by better targeting and counter targeting isn't enough to enjoy watching a new match.
[Target closest post where post is type Sniper.]

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#23 » 20 Apr 2017, 13:04

Neoliminal, I agree with your "three" layers, and I also agree that they are fine to stay in GM (since it is not that there is high activity).

For the matches, unfortunately this is valid for every game that rewards optimizations a lot. People have to swallow to go through losses or they drop the game. I am playing on and off in the last 2 months and I'm losing a lot too and I have to force myself to not play more.

For a newcomer I would always suggest: start small. See every defeat as a test, identify one , __one__ thing to change and go in battle again (you can note the rest of the possible changes on "one note" or on paper, but without applying them at once). I emphasize one thing to change because it is difficult to assess the value of multiple changes at once.

Furthermore does not matter the amount of wins, once you have a good tactic, you will skyrocket to higher scores.

The process that I follow is normally:
- identify obvious problem (not a general problem, but a precise one, like "sniper has to aim with those priorities")
- make backups
- implement the change
- test again for 5-10 maps until the previous problem is solved, if not, go back to the drawing board and start with "make backups".
- identify next big problem
- start again from "make backups"

It takes quite a time. Assuming 1h to implementing a change with a minimum of local tests (this due to the AI editor that is slow), and then another hour of online tests due to low activity online. For every change one needs 2h. It is quite time consuming, although fun.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

TheKidPunisher
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 565

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#24 » 10 May 2017, 06:34

Actually my new AI counts 294 nodes. After the improvement i want to do (when i will have time and motivation) i think it will be over 400nodes (maybe more)

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#25 » 10 May 2017, 17:50

Woah. I hope those are in several subtrees.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

TheKidPunisher
Autonomous Entity
Autonomous Entity
Posts: 565

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#26 » 10 May 2017, 18:55

Yeah. I have got subtree of subtree. And the new modification i want to add will maybe integer subtree in subtree in subtree.... i think my portable will say: this human is crazy to do that on this device!

pier4r
Skynet
Skynet
Posts: 3390

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#27 » 10 May 2017, 19:22

nah having multiple subtrees is fine. I have like 5 or 7 nested. The point is to keep them small. Otherwise:
(a) it defeats the advantage over a big ai
(b) those are less reusable (if something is big, it is less generic to be reused there and there)
(c) it is difficult to maintain
(d) it is difficult to remember.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

forReason
Script
Script
Posts: 17

Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#28 » 22 May 2017, 14:08

got around 250 nodes in 35 subtrees. however currently im struggling with teamtagging as i think there is a bug :/

Image

Return to “Strategies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest