Node count/complexity.

DreamWrecker
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Node count/complexity.

Post#1 » 09 Mar 2017, 22:19

Reading over the forum it seems that most people tend to have low node count A.I.s that are fairly task specific. Even in some of the general/universal A.I. discussions it seems that people build around classes or resource gathering.

I have one A.I. and it handles all classes using 'if self bot class' and 'if ally bot class' nodes while also handling resource gathering.

Here is the complexity part. My A.I. Is made up of 162 nodes spread across 4 sub branches: Resource, Maneuvering, Combat, and tagging. Tagging is a huge part of how this A.I. functions. It automatically assigns an ally as a commander then the commander tags all enemy's and resources while specifying a priority enemy. I've gotten to 1450+ score with this A.I. and I make improvements every 20 matches or so.

How many nodes are your A.I.s made of and what do you think of the principle behind my A.I.?

pier4r
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#2 » 09 Mar 2017, 22:38

Quick reply on the nodes. I do not know, I did not count but on average (I have a generic AI per bot class) I would say that I have between 150 and 250 nodes. Note that more nodes is not equal better tactics. Normally when I simplify the nodes I achieve a better behavior.
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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#3 » 09 Mar 2017, 22:41

I'm sure that your way is the right one. If you can handle this one bot and bring it to ???1600 - 1800??? After that, you can start to be more specific and wrap map-specific classes around your generic AI. I tried booth, having strongly map related AIs (with about 100 subtrees) and the generic approach. The specific way has only short advantages. Next idea you have in another map and the advantage is gone, maintenance is a really big issue.

I just saw it. I did a little change in my attacking module and after that I went from 1800 to 2000 points in only one day. All maps got advantages from the better attacking module.

I just counted the amount of nodes and leafs in my tree:

25 Rush 1vs1
82 Retreat
30 Resource
83 Attacking Subtree
7 Pushing Subtree

Summarized I have 227 nodes :roll: and one AI for all classes (with the same filters you use). And I really tag allot. But I try to avoid it in critical situations like in my attacking subtree or during retreat. And you should use the action filter whenever possible. They are fast and they can be very effective.

Someone is fleeing ... try to let him flee longer to push the enemy
Your enemy wants to grab a ressource ... get closer to that resource
Opponent tries to focus on only one bot ... dance
and so on and so on :ugeek:

mcompany
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#4 » 10 Mar 2017, 05:52

Ok, I went through my code, and I have 125 nodes for my assault/machine gun AI, which is probably the most amount of nodes out of my per bot AIs. However, this does include serveral different points where I basically copied the exact same code into multiple parts of the AI so only counting things once probably would put me below 100 nodes, maybe even below 90 nodes

Behind your principals, I will first state that I don't believe that tagging is useful in generic AIs. Second, I personally would split maneuvering to two different sections, one being for retreats, and one being for actual movement. Otherwise I see no problem with it.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#5 » 10 Mar 2017, 05:56

@mcopm TCT has tagging on its Defence module, and thats his strongest part.
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mcompany
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#6 » 10 Mar 2017, 06:02

Well if TCT comes back, I want to see if I can duplicate it without tags, because it is rare that I can't. Even if I couldn't, I still don't believe I have a reason to consider tags as they all seem to have a much bigger disadvantage if you aren't optimal than anything else

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#7 » 10 Mar 2017, 06:16

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:@mcopm TCT has tagging on its Defence module, and thats his strongest part.


Hard to prove since he stopped to spawn games. One or two games is to less to compare the advantages and disadvantages.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#8 » 11 Mar 2017, 08:16

Nah ive seen his debuger with the actual nodes.
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neoliminal
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#9 » 11 Mar 2017, 16:38

This is strange. I have relatively few nodes by comparison to you guys. My most advanced bot, with tagging ability, is 13 nodes (but two sub-trees, one 3 nodes long, the other 8 nodes.)

I just reached Master League with this.
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Kanishka
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#10 » 11 Mar 2017, 16:43

neoliminal wrote:This is strange. I have relatively few nodes by comparison to you guys. My most advanced bot, with tagging ability, is 13 nodes (but two sub-trees, one 3 nodes long, the other 8 nodes.)

I just reached Master League with this.


*Hats Off*
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neoliminal
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#11 » 11 Mar 2017, 16:44

Kanishka wrote:
neoliminal wrote:This is strange. I have relatively few nodes by comparison to you guys. My most advanced bot, with tagging ability, is 13 nodes (but two sub-trees, one 3 nodes long, the other 8 nodes.)

I just reached Master League with this.


*Hats Off*


Hope that didn't come off as bragging, just thought it was odd. I thought everyone was doing what I was doing, but I suppose everyone thinks that. :lol:
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Kanishka
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#12 » 11 Mar 2017, 17:11

neoliminal wrote:
Kanishka wrote:
neoliminal wrote:This is strange. I have relatively few nodes by comparison to you guys. My most advanced bot, with tagging ability, is 13 nodes (but two sub-trees, one 3 nodes long, the other 8 nodes.)

I just reached Master League with this.


*Hats Off*


Hope that didn't come off as bragging, just thought it was odd. I thought everyone was doing what I was doing, but I suppose everyone thinks that. :lol:


You have the complete right to brag. I'm unstable with that beastly XPRMNT Alpha.
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neoliminal
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#13 » 12 Mar 2017, 03:07

It's very impressive and a little intimidating.

There are a few things I'd like to do with my code right now, but top of the list is cluster mobs.
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Kanishka
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#14 » 12 Mar 2017, 13:58

neoliminal wrote:It's very impressive and a little intimidating.

There are a few things I'd like to do with my code right now, but top of the list is cluster mobs.


I implemented that when I used Map Specifics. Had it on Split Team. Boy, did I suck at that.
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PerotX
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#15 » 18 Apr 2017, 22:01

neoliminal wrote:This is strange. I have relatively few nodes by comparison to you guys. My most advanced bot, with tagging ability, is 13 nodes (but two sub-trees, one 3 nodes long, the other 8 nodes.)

I just reached Master League with this.


I also had a rather simple AI up until Grand Master League, and I was doing pretty well, I think. I barely even lost any games during that 2 hour period when I was in Master League. But yesterday, I got to GM League, and won only one match since then. Now I'm thinking about creating less generic and more complex AI that will at least keep me afloat in GML.

pier4r
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#16 » 19 Apr 2017, 00:07

I'm always a bit surprised by the reports like "I was doing fine then grand master league happened and I got obliterated". I wonder what they are doing in master league to not step up the challenge.
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Wozza
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#17 » 19 Apr 2017, 01:26

If I'm reading the matchmaking thread in the manual forum correctly players in master league can't match anyone with an ELO higher than 1600?

Which matches my experience that I never match anyone lower than 1300.

mcompany
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#18 » 19 Apr 2017, 03:48

What I think it the deal is that below Grand Master league, the skill levels are kept to around the same position, but once they get to Grand Master league, the safety net comes off as everyone 1700 and up are becoming more and more experienced at the game. Plus, in Grand Master league, a lot of the top ideas only circulate within the league, and few spill out below Master league because there are very little matches between the leagues

TheKidPunisher
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#19 » 19 Apr 2017, 07:01

The AI i used has 33 nodes and bring me at average 1400 points (it permit me to stay in the GM league even after spamming matches like a retard for XP). But the next AI i will try is already at more than 50 nodes.

pier4r
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Re: Node count/complexity.

Post#20 » 19 Apr 2017, 07:55

Wozza wrote:If I'm reading the matchmaking thread in the manual forum correctly players in master league can't match anyone with an ELO higher than 1600?

Which matches my experience that I never match anyone lower than 1300.

Yes
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