Need help on finding different behaviours

LELEZ
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Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#1 » 05 Feb 2017, 12:56

Hi everyone :D

I'm new to the game and i'm super hooked by it!
I'm only level 4 so i haven't unlocked tags nor team tags yet (or the damn sniper, i did league 6 without it but i guess i'm doomed to lose some games now and get back to a place where i can actually win some more XP and level up to 6).

I want my first good AI to be a "generic" one for all the bots in all the maps, mainly because i don't have the sniper yet and i can't create sophisticated strategies knowing my opponents will have it and i don't, but also because i want to have a valid base-point to start from when i'll go deeper to develop more specific strategies for maps and bot classes. I want a valid opponent in practice mode to test my new creations or my specific AIs when i'll make some (plus i've read somewhere in the forum that random maps will be a thing in the future, so maybe working on a generic AI isn't that bad at this point)

I'm trying to make a map in my mind (later that will be pen and paper) about what are the general conditions that could make me want to develop a branch (subroutine) specifically for that occasion.
I'll try to be clear with an example:

Generic AI fights the opponent.
Let's find the conditions for when i don't want to fight, but i want to score points instead (with one or more of my bots). Let's say if a resource is near me and my base is short/medium and no opponent is in short/medium i want to try to grab it with one dude and score a point (so if i pushed enemy away this could happen)
Great let's say this simple new branch to add to my generic AI improves it in some of the cases, making it a little bit better than the old one in some circumstances.

Here comes the question, what would be the conditions you guys will search for new branches?
Experimenting a little bit (i only played the game for a couple days and i barely made it to level 4 so please be kind and add also stupid things because i might have missed them :D ) i found some of the cases i want to nail down into a branch (meaning i don't want bots to act as generic ones in that specific case) and those at the moment are:


- Improving the cleanup phase if/when i killed all opponents to score all points in the minimum amount of time
- beating the "dancers" (already kinda of achieved but i think it could be done better)
- finishing off weak enemies
- giving some kind of priority to carrying resource targets
- finding best way to protect a carrying resource ally
- swapping a carrying resource bot with a fighting one based on health / shield and distances
- finding when to push and when to retreat
- using fixed points in the map to know where i am (maybe a little bit too much map specific for a generic AI, but maybe if bases exists going too far from them means the wall?)
- carrying resources for little times and score them in little steps
- checking possible enemy actions to predict their next moves (if enemy is moving to self for example, or to ally base, or to resource on the ground)

differenciate behaviour if
- the bot is alone or is in group
- the bot is my last one in the map
- the bot is fighting a stronger opponent or a weaker one (for botclass and/or for shield/health amount)
- the game is a score game or a kill them all game
- the bot is doomed so kamikaze time (spiral map comes in mind)
- the enemy is carrying resources and i'm not


Any other branch you'd suggest me to think about? Any tips you can give me? Some strategies you commonly use? I don't want solved AIs or top secret strategies, just make me think about in game cases i still haven't experienced yet!
Thanks so much :)

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#2 » 05 Feb 2017, 13:18

Image
Image

Il invest 600 bananas on this thread, hoping that TCT will expose some of his ai. That will answer everything.


Welcome tho. <3
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=386
The only little help I can give, (or that's nothing at all XD)
Im on that way achieving that kind of ai to but just 50% of it.

Just saying stuff
Ive read your previous post but id strongly suggest that to cut
Resources base ais
To killing ais and then merge them in one ai for finishing.
-"super ai"
Use subtrees to merge your two types ai, but create them individualy first.

Code: Select all

▶Super AI (1)
▶Actual AIs (2)
 [ Elimination ais
 [ Best score ais
▶Subtrees (26)
 [▶ elimination modules (9)
  [ mainframe 1
  [ mainframe 1.1
  [ Mainframe 1.2
  [ Defence 2
  [ Defence 2.1
  [ Defence 2.2
  [ Attack 3
  [ Attack 3.1
  [ Attack 3.2
 [▶ best score modules (15)
  [ mainframe 1
  [ mainframe 1.1
  [ Mainframe 1.2
  [ Defence 2
  [ Defence 2.1
  [ Defence 2.2
  [ Attack 3
  [ Attack 3.1
  [ Attack 3.2
  [ Score 4
  [ Score 4.1
  [ Score 4.2
  [ Scene short
  [ Scene med
  [ Scene long
 


This would be my paper work as im gonna play the game more hardcore thanks for the write up.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

LELEZ
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#3 » 05 Feb 2017, 16:19

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:Il invest 600 bananas on this thread, hoping that TCT will expose some of his ai. That will answer everything.


I thank you for the quick reply, and hope your 600 bananas can convince TcT to pass by and give me an advice!

I see your point probably score is so different than kill that i'll need a main division of the AI in 2 to start.. The point is that all you need to know to put up a good combat is the same in the 2 game modes.. only difference being when you should combat
So all combat related tricks should be the same, roughly, for the 2 game modes

Don't you know any case you want to point out that wasn't in my list? don't you make different divisions than the ones i pointed out? i feel mines are kinda basics and i need the special ones to be good :D
(Not that i solved all the ones i listed yet ahahaha many of those are quite complicated to cut out of a strategy without messing up the general behaviours)

pier4r
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#4 » 05 Feb 2017, 17:03

As I wrote already around. There are players with one generic ai, see Tralalo.

My advice is to differentiate and make a generic ai for every class because, even if you don't have all of them, makes maintenance easier.

Also branches goes in subtrees, again for maintenance. You will see the maintenance benefit only if you play a bit more (I mean in terms of games and days).

At the end here the best tactics win but that is reached through a lot of revisions and maintenance.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

LELEZ
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#5 » 05 Feb 2017, 17:14

pier4r wrote:My advice is to differentiate and make a generic ai for every class because, even if you don't have all of them, makes maintenance easier.


I didn't think about it in the first place but it seems a good idea to have 4 generic AIs, even if i wanted one for most i can accept having 4 generics. And as you said manteinance / changing stuff will be easier!
Also removes a lot of the if self botclass i would've had to think about

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#6 » 05 Feb 2017, 17:44

@papa pier you dont do generic ais?
Only specializations?

-blitz
-tralalo
-mr.null?
-i dunno for ritter and mcomp.

Uses generics.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

mcompany
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#7 » 05 Feb 2017, 19:20

I believe I've said multiple times that I have fully generic AIs that are also completely tagless

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NullPointer
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#8 » 05 Feb 2017, 19:41

7w I use 100% generic AIs
SYP and Split 99%
MP/Kingmaker 90%
BS 80%

And the 2 worst maps:
CoD 60%
Mind Game 10%

pier4r
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#9 » 05 Feb 2017, 21:39

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:@papa pier you dont do generic ais?
Only specializations?

-blitz
-tralalo
-mr.null?
-i dunno for ritter and mcomp.

Uses generics.


I do 4 generics AI/tactics for each bot class. Then I use decorators (see the FAQ thread).
It is way easier to maintain and develop.

It means, for example: "SYP", advance until base is in range X, then use basic AI.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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TcT
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#10 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:05

This is my method, I have 4 generic model for all classes ( retreat, attack, moving toward, scurity resource), 4 classes using same model. One or two AI(s) for each maps using those models. Each model saparated into 4 part for different classes. This is how it looks like. So I only get 15 AIs in my list. If you spot a better retreat or attack strategy, you just need to improve the model and All the Als get update. If you wanna specialise in defferent maps, you can change the individual maps' AI.
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TcT
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#11 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:08

Take my SPT Al for example, This Ai is for split team. This AI use the first 3 models. After the sniper in short distence The bots act like normal.
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TcT
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#12 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:10

Hope this help you.

pier4r
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#13 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:13

Woah I could not imagine you did that with so compact programs and few subroutines. Hands down!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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TcT
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#14 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:22

XD, simplify that a lot for easier maintain, looks like this before
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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#15 » 06 Feb 2017, 00:44

TcT wrote:This is my method, I have 4 generic model for all classes ( retreat, attack, moving toward, scurity resource), 4 classes using same model. One or two AI(s) for each maps using those models. Each model saparated into 4 part for different classes.


And now I'm really impressed. I have
6 attack modules,
8 retreat modules,
uncounted attack modules,
5 Ressource modules,
3 push modules and
about 10 generic AIs I puzzled together with the modules.

After that for every map I have one class, some bigger, some smaller, using several generic AIs. And there are about 15 map specific modules like opening tactics.

This is really hard to maintain and maybe not the best choice.

The questions you asked are the right questions to get a good generic AI. Maybe you make two generic AIs to test different targeting or retreatment modules against each other.

What I can recommend you is to fight as much as possible in multiplayer mode, even with bad AIs. After ever loss, analyse why you lost, especially against opponents with comparable ELO value. That's the way to improve.

I'm sure we will see you in the top 20 very soon.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#16 » 06 Feb 2017, 06:35

600 bananas, all well spent 8-)
And by mentioning 'SOME'
He exposed the brain of his ais :o
All 4 of them :o

When I looked at TcT's 'retreat' module
Image

And then I runned the game and looked at mine
Image
Image
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#17 » 06 Feb 2017, 07:03

Tagless 'enemy identification'
Middle game routine (1:50 time remaining or less or more XD)
Identifies all enemy combinations from numbers
2 and 3 assault count will varry from 1+ this needs tagging but im still thinking.
Which would change the bots fighting style 100%
Im thinking but kinda doubt this is the cause for me losing to all assault class because its just on its original fighting style wich is brutal.
1 enemy left is on another subtree wich is just short range.

Image
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#18 » 06 Feb 2017, 07:25

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:When I looked at TcT's 'retreat' module

...

And then I runned the game and looked at mine


:lol: :lol: :lol:

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#19 » 06 Feb 2017, 08:53

Ritter Runkel wrote:
The questions you asked are the right questions to get a good generic AI. Maybe you make two generic AIs to test different targeting or retreatment modules against each other.


Actually for me the questions he/she asked are everything to make 'a really good AI', i cant find something else in addition thats why i already made the questions for my paper work rebuilding my generic ai.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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Kanishka
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Re: Need help on finding different behaviours

Post#20 » 06 Feb 2017, 10:47

I'm sitting here thinking... "Those guys create AIs like that. I'm stuck with this."
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