Better Transport?

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TcT
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Better Transport?

Post#1 » 03 Feb 2017, 13:56

Test this tac for a few days, even lose many points for that. But more important, this is kind of working. This is how it's works: grab the ball and mark yourself => if grabbing a ball, securing the ball to the base => if moving toward the base, dropping the ball => if self marked, moving toward closest ally base => if moving toward ally base whithout resource, grabbing closest resource => repeat ... I am not sure if is make sense.
here is some footage: 245102 244283 245690
glitch out when testing: 245786 :cry:

It is not working evertime, lose a lot in testing map (tsw), not sure if it is worth to try or not. But technically, it should have a advantage if it's working.

1>because bots can grab ball from a little distence. so you can let you bot move a little bit (0.25s) then grab it from away.
2>only useful for shotgun, because shotgun have a much quicker moving speed when no resource than grab one. Therefore, this trick make shotgun move much more faster with resource. With other class, this trick only make them move slower, due to wasting too much time when drop and grab and no even faster without resource.
3>continusely grab and drop could trick enemy somehow, but not experienced player :mrgreen:
4>Again, still testing, not sure it s worth.

try the following code, and your will under stand how it works:

Ganna disappear for a few days due to final exam week, hope this trick is useful for your guys. hope your AIs make great improvement, and have fun. :D
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Last edited by TcT on 03 Feb 2017, 14:30, edited 3 times in total.

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NullPointer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#2 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:13

Interesting idea, but did you compare this with standard grabbing/securing? Is it really faster?

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TcT
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#3 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:17

Yes, it s much faster

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NullPointer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#4 » 03 Feb 2017, 21:22

This should probably be considered a bug, not a strategy.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#5 » 04 Feb 2017, 12:37

Yeah ive faught this.
Graded it OP as theres no way for detecting it as its happening rather than targeting shotgun as it usually carries resources.

Scenario;

1)if enemy shotgun carries resources= blinking nodes

2) if enemy shotgun approaching its base= blinking nodes

3) even idle/moving = blinking nodes

A) blinking nodes = confused bots
B) confused bots = exploited
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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GFX47
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#6 » 13 Feb 2017, 23:44


Ed-209
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#7 » 19 Feb 2018, 06:24



Well, apparently this hasn't been fixed and I see that some of the top level players still use this as well as some other filters removed from editor, but not disabled in their ai. This resource transport method is also used in several of the campaign ai's as well, so I assume you could not fix, so I am working on trying it out.

I have devised a tactic that could have used the "attack any" that was removed. If this is going to remain viable for those that previously used it you should put back in the editor, or make it depreciated in their ai.

Sorry people, just an observation.

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Krellion
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#8 » 11 Apr 2018, 12:29

Hi!
For me this isn't a bug exploit, but only an optimized strategy about gathering and scoring points on points, simply deep understanding the mechanics....and you can counteract it with a right teamtag/untag to prevent to have some confused bots.
If I have difficult to win these battles is only because I'm not still using it (maybe thanks at you I saw what I wrong with it), however this strategy is the real difference between low and high skills.

pier4r
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#9 » 11 Apr 2018, 21:31

No it is a bug, as the sg is not meant to be "that fast" bringing the resource at home. This means that one saves a lot of ticks in which the sg would be almost a sitting duck or out of combat.

In other words: if you pick the same AI, and you clone it adding the sg bug, the second AI would be at least slightly stronger. This doesn't mean that everyone that uses the bug is invincible.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

MGBlitz81
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#10 » 12 Apr 2018, 07:21

Krellion, the resource stays in one spot while the shotgun is dancing away from it.

Its a bug.

masterplayer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#11 » 14 Apr 2018, 11:54

Krellion wrote:
For me this is [...] an optimized strategy about gathering and scoring points on points, simply deep understanding the mechanics... and you can counteract it with a right teamtag/untag to prevent to have some confused bots.

+1

Pier4r wrote:
No it is a bug, as the [Shotgun] is not meant to be "that fast" bringing the resource at home.

That's true, but is this "speed boost" really a bad thing? See topic https://forum.gladiabots.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1209

MGBlitz81 wrote:
[...] the resource stays in one spot while the shotgun is dancing away from it. Its a bug.

I guess you are talking about TcT's old implementation of this strategy, right? I don't understand his code at all, but I can share my implementation to discuss about. IMAO it's not abusing any bugs, except detecting "self dropping resource" as "self idling".
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pier4r
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#12 » 14 Apr 2018, 14:25

For me the speed boost is a bad thing for how it is achieved. The sg is already pretty good by itself and with the faster resource collection it is a bit OP.

Aside from this the huge negative side of the sg bug is how it is done. If the sg would be faster by default, it would be faster for all and it would be pretty clear that it is going to score a resources. With the "move, pick, drop, move, pick, etc..." it is clumsy to detect it. People that use the bug have an advantage (compared to their tactic without the bug).

So I am generally against it. If we really have to swallow it, then I would make the sg generally faster in bringing resources to base. I don't like the idea, then the game would revolve too much around the sg as it is now. But at least in that case everyone would know that the sg is OP, it would be the same piece for everyone.

For example, masterplayer. You defense is not bad, but as mumpsimus, without the sg bug you would accomplish way less than you do at the moment.

Other players, like kingsnowman or even acho (at the moment acho is without sg) can achieve higher performance with a clever tactic without resorting to any bug.
Without considering sollniss and tortuga that are in the top5 (ghosts included) and they don't use any sg bug.

I myself - well when I don't break my AI too much - am floating at the moment around 2150 (tortuga is 2350 and the second is 2200/2250) without the sg bug.

In other words: the sg bug is not stricly necessary to win, but it makes things easier for players that overall are not that strong. (one can see it when the bases are swapped, so it is mostly fighting. And players are crushed)

I guess it also kills a bit of creativity (as not everyone use it, therefore it is not needed to be that creative). There are players that use the sg or groupings creatively without the sg bug. For example Jax.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

masterplayer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#13 » 14 Apr 2018, 21:02

pier4r wrote: […] with the faster resource collection it is a bit OP.

IMAO Sniper and Machinegun are also very strong, so I won't consider the Shotgun OP.

pier4r wrote: If the sg would be faster by default, it would be faster for all [...]

All players can use this strategy - it's the same faster Shotgun for everyone, isn't it?

pier4r wrote: With the "move, pick, drop, move, pick, etc..." it is clumsy to detect it.

No, it's not (see attachments).

pier4r wrote: […] without the sg bug you would accomplish way less than you do at the moment. Other players [...] can achieve higher performance with a clever tactic without resorting to any bug.

8-) CHALLENGE ACCEPTED

The real question is, how do you want to fix this "bug" without breaking the editor or weaken the Shotgun too much?
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pier4r
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#14 » 14 Apr 2018, 23:36

masterplayer wrote:
The real question is, how do you want to fix this "bug" without breaking the editor or weaken the Shotgun too much?


The shotgun is not weak. See, you already cannot conceive it without the bug, you are too used to it.

The sg is pretty fine as it is, without the bug.

How do i fix it? I guess if I would develop the game I would ensure that the shotgun would be over the resource (the mid point of the model is at least very close to the mid point of the resource model) and that's it. The bug exist because the sg can somehow "catch" the resource without being over for it. Another reason it is a bug is because it doesn't work with other classes.

Once the sg bug is fixed you will see all those using the bug moving away the sg and then moving back to catch the resource. It would be hilarious, having the sg not moving at all. Of course this will happen until the player fixes it.

And yes you track a "lame sg" with a tag. Try without, I'm interested.

And no the argument "the strategy is available to everyone" is not an argument. Because not everyone reads the forum.

Anyway if you use the lame sg I don't expect you to understand that is lame, otherwise you wouldn't use it. I cannot do much if the game allows it. For me using the sg bug is lame, period, but the game currently allows it.
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masterplayer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#15 » 15 Apr 2018, 14:08

pier4r wrote:
masterplayer wrote:The real question is, how do you want to fix this "bug" without breaking the editor or weaken the Shotgun too much?

The shotgun is not weak.

I didn't want to say that the Shotgun is weak, I was just afraid Gfx would reduce its speed.

pier4r wrote:See, you already cannot conceive it without the bug, you are too used to it.

I already accepted your challenge to not use this bug anymore.

pier4r wrote:How do i fix it? I guess if I would develop the game I would ensure that the shotgun would be over the resource (the mid point of the model is at least very close to the mid point of the resource model) and that's it.

+1

pier4r wrote:And yes you track a "lame sg" with a tag. Try without, I'm interested.

Sorry, I don't understand what you want from me here - currently I am not using the tagging above...

pier4r wrote:And no the argument "the strategy is available to everyone" is not an argument. Because not everyone reads the forum.

You don't have to read the forum to copy a obvious strategy from one of your opponents.

pier4r wrote:Anyway if you use the lame sg I don't expect you to understand that is lame, otherwise you wouldn't use it.

:(

pier4r
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#16 » 15 Apr 2018, 22:33

masterplayer wrote:I already accepted your challenge to not use this bug anymore.


Against me or against everyone? In the latter case, well. Well done! It will be harder (especially against those using the bug), but more satisfying.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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TomCat
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#17 » 16 Apr 2018, 07:31

pier4r wrote:And no the argument "the strategy is available to everyone" is not an argument. Because not everyone reads the forum.


I don't understand this your argument at all. I used this strategy much earlier than I found out that this forum exists. So the argument "the strategy is available to everyone" is, on the contrary, the only essential one. It is not cheat because everyone can use it. And is it a bug? Maybe, but again - everybody can exploit it. Personally, I do not care if it will fixed or not. If it stops working, I will stop using it. But I will always try to use everything the game allows. And I don't understand people who want to order me to use something or not. If the game allows, then I think it's okay. If you want to talk about whether to fix this "bug" or not, then it's ok too. But do not try to condemn people for playing according to the rules just because you do not like the rules.
My God, it's full of stars!

pier4r
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#18 » 16 Apr 2018, 07:51

Lol. I find it lame and I say it. It is known that is a bug. For me trying to play the card "the games allows it so it is all ok and you cannot condemn people for it" , well, is an argument as lame as the sg bug.

Is it identified as bug? Yes.
Do I like strategies that use it? No.
Can I force people to stop it? No.
Can people force me to stop seeing and classifying it as lame? No.
Is a strategy weaker without using it? Yes.

Period.

In a lot of games there are things that the game allows that are frowned upon by the playerbase. The community sets what is ok to do, and in tournaments if one catches you using something that the game allows but the community doesn't, you are out. It is really simple as that.

In this case you can just use it without caring about my words , but demanding that I stop condemning it. Forget it. It is not even a demand you should pose to begin with.
Also if I organize a tournament all the sg bug users would be prevented to participate.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

masterplayer
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#19 » 16 Apr 2018, 09:10

pier4r wrote:
masterplayer wrote:I already accepted your challenge to not use this bug anymore.


Against me or against everyone? In the latter case, well. Well done! It will be harder (especially against those using the bug), but more satisfying.


Against everyone. See replay 933863 for example.
I am fine being challenged, TomCat. ;)

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TomCat
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Re: Better Transport?

Post#20 » 16 Apr 2018, 10:15

ok. So if it was identified as bug why the game itself use it in campaign? It is very strange isn't it?
And why was it identified as bug? Because it makes sg faster or because it confuse enemy bots as somebody said here?
Because I don't want to make sg faster. But I want to confuse enemy bots. Is this ok for You? Or is confusing enemy againts some unknown comunity rules too? I don't want to use drop-move-catch. I want to use catch-move-drop. But now it cannot be done. I asked here in another thread for change behaviour of command "move toward" - so I could move to a resource and than catch it. But I was not satisfied. So for now I can not change it even if I wanted to.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next version, where it will probably be resolved and these absurd discussions will end.
However, this discussion made me quite scared about future. Because when someone starts to invent some unwritten rules over the rules and exclude players who do not follow his the only correct rules, it's the way to hell imho.
My God, it's full of stars!

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