One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

sethcohn
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One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#1 » 20 Jan 2017, 07:10

Writing for a given arena is fine, and having individual bots with different code is also a tactic...

But something is just lovely about having One AI to run them all...
Flexible enough to win most boards, and run most bots.

Anyone else in that school? Or do you have tons of tweaked bots for different boards?

pier4r
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#2 » 20 Jan 2017, 07:49

At every major change I rework 4 basic AIs. one for every bot (it is less complicated to maintain). Actually in alpha 6.1.3 I was started just to optimize also per map.

Others (see old threads) have up to 20 Ais (nullpointer for example)
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Botique
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#3 » 20 Jan 2017, 16:48

Me me me... I am for that... Of course I can't avoid making couple of specific bots... but not for maps, more for - situations.

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Kanishka
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#4 » 20 Jan 2017, 16:55

I have generalized AIs mostly. Used to have Multi-Tasker Omega in the days of Alpha 5.x... It calculated what to do based on Bot Class. Was a mess without Sub-Trees.
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sethcohn
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#5 » 20 Jan 2017, 17:02

This almost feels like different leagues... ie, you enter the AI program to use, it fires up a random map and gives all bots (potentially using MG, SG, SN) the same code...

That's 100% a different sort of battle compared to fighting the guy who tweaks his 4 AIs for 7 wonders...

Main league could be anything goes, this would be one of a few custom leagues... like No special bots League, Random placement league, etc...

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Chunkymonkey
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#6 » 21 Jan 2017, 07:26

When Alpha 7 went live, I started from scratch.

Previous to Alpha 7 I had one AI but started to make specialist variants in Alpha 6.

I now have one AI per bot class, but that's because they have different strengths but I could just make one mother AI that started with four nodes that goes if self = bot class.

In addition to the four basic types, I also have two specialist variants for CoD and Spiral. But I'll eventually work those into my base four AI.

Tralalo
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#7 » 23 Jan 2017, 19:22

I kinda like using the same AI everywhere with obviously some tweaks to take bot class into account (the sniper's range, the shotgun's speed, the MG's survivability..). The downside to this approach is that it's hard to remain competitive on "weird" maps like Circle of Death and Meeting Point where you're almost surrounded from the very beginning and specific strategies are very effective..

pier4r
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#8 » 23 Jan 2017, 21:04

I do like "Set your priorities", please advance (so an AI of 4 nodes) then fall back to the generic AI.

So far it works, but I know from alpha 5.2 (see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92) that slowly people will optimize until subtle details and generic AIs will be difficult to be used fruitfully at the top.
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sethcohn
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#9 » 23 Jan 2017, 23:18

Only if the option is there for unlimited node/code.

Yes, with bot class checking, and map tests, you could likely shove it all into one program... but what if there was a (artificial) limit...

Only X nodes, or randomized maps, or only one type of bot, etc...

mcompany
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#10 » 24 Jan 2017, 00:06

I've been trying to make an AI for all maps, and honestly, the only real downsides I might be able to find (other than being forced to try to account for everything) is the lack of ability to focus on more important bots on certain maps (Mind Game being the worst offender), and the fact that it would be much harder to know when to snatch resources (although I'm currently not worried about that)

sethcohn
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#11 » 24 Jan 2017, 01:28

mcompany wrote:the lack of ability to focus on more important bots on certain maps (Mind Game being the worst offender), and the fact that it would be much harder to know when to snatch resources (although I'm currently not worried about that)


It's actually not that hard... In practice mode, there is at least one map where the computer will grab a single resource right off, and if it scores, you lose. None of the community maps are that hard (and I've got AI that always beats that map anyway)

You can do things like "if machinegun bot exists, then" to handle specific bots too.

And you can always do "If no resources exist" to know you are on a kill em all map

pier4r
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#12 » 24 Jan 2017, 03:57

sethcohn wrote:Only if the option is there for unlimited node/code.

Yes, with bot class checking, and map tests, you could likely shove it all into one program... but what if there was a (artificial) limit...

Only X nodes, or randomized maps, or only one type of bot, etc...


well only X nodes is a limit. After enough nodes the editor and the game lags a lot, I would say that around 100 is the limit
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sethcohn
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#13 » 24 Jan 2017, 04:21

pier4r wrote:After enough nodes the editor and the game lags a lot, I would say that around 100 is the limit


Total for the AI or in one screen? (ie using subtrees, this isn't an issue?)

mcompany
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#14 » 24 Jan 2017, 05:02

sethcohn wrote:
It's actually not that hard... In practice mode, there is at least one map where the computer will grab a single resource right off, and if it scores, you lose. None of the community maps are that hard (and I've got AI that always beats that map anyway)

You can do things like "if machinegun bot exists, then" to handle specific bots too.

And you can always do "If no resources exist" to know you are on a kill em all map

First off, practice AIs that have a low number of resources generally are made where it is impossible for your bots to grab the resources before the enemy, so it is better off to attack the enemy before they can score. However, they usually aren't the best indicator how to make an AI good at scoring. Since I never tried making an AI for scoring, I'm not sure how hard it would be, but I'm sure it would be much harder to sync with multiple maps than it would for a generic AI that ignored resources.

As for how to tell if it is a Kill Them All map you not only have to check if resources exists, but you also need to check if an enemy is holding a resource (if you only check if resources exists, then your bots will get confused once the enemy picks up the last few resources)

pier4r
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#15 » 24 Jan 2017, 07:32

sethcohn wrote:
pier4r wrote:After enough nodes the editor and the game lags a lot, I would say that around 100 is the limit


Total for the AI or in one screen? (ie using subtrees, this isn't an issue?)


Mmh no, see the performance thread in bug reports.
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NullPointer
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#16 » 24 Jan 2017, 09:33

Unfortunately there is no game mode yet for generic AIs, which would be very welcomed since creating specific AIs for 8 maps is too time consuming. I'm still using the same flee strategy for all classes with very minor changes for Snipers, I need less maps and more time :roll:

Pier4r, you're playing in disadvantage, get your account synced to a computer.
Yesterday I modified 1 node using my phone and it took 11 seconds measured with a clock.

pier4r
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#17 » 24 Jan 2017, 10:44

Well my Nvidia k1 is the fastest editor that I have, for the moment. If I put games on the laptop I know that I will stop to use the Nvidia and I do not want to. But I thank you for the recognition. I hope that optimizations will come one day because android is a very interesting gaming market, especially for those not intensive games (one does not require mouse and keyboard).
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Kanishka
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#18 » 24 Jan 2017, 13:50

Aaand I reached Master League with a single AI! It doesn't have Sub-Trees... So I found a way to make it quick.
• New AI
• < <AI Launcher> >
• Add Sub-Tree
• Select my one and only AI
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Screenshot_2017-01-24-19-07-22-764_com.GFX47.Gladiabots.png
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Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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NullPointer
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#19 » 27 Jan 2017, 11:23

I played for 3 days with 1 AI only and got to 1550, which probably is the equivalent of 1700 in Alpha 7.

I was building this AI only when I was commuting or something like this though. With more dedication I think it's possible to get more 100 points on top of that, but I don't recommend it, it's not that fun.

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ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: One AI to rule them all versus customized per bot and or board

Post#20 » 27 Jan 2017, 11:36

Oh lol this exist already
Put this here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=386&p=4197&sid=bc96f759a947e4246a7362533a5b2753#p4197


NullPointer wrote:I played for 3 days with 1 AI only and got to 1550, which probably is the equivalent of 1700 in Alpha

At mr.null ive been playing with only one ai ↑ that one from the link and im bouncing over 1400-1500
First days took me fron 1600-1500
Wouldnt recommend it to,
Buts its fun watching its buggy replays.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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