Strategies featured in the Wiki

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LuBeNo
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Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#1 » 05 Nov 2017, 06:24

One of the last topics in the Wiki is strategies. I would like to link to the strategies section of the forum, but also feature the most important strategies there.
1) what are the most important things to implement for new players? (A little bit more explaining text or a link appreciated)
2) would you provide HQ screenshots of standalone implementations of the main idea of the strategy?
3) order the strategies. What strategies to place first?

I got so far: Explain "Currently targeted".
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Jeffrey Harpen
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#2 » 06 Nov 2017, 17:39

LuBeNo wrote:1) what are the most important things to implement for new players?
1. Retreatment.
2. Gathering resources.
3. Cooperation.

LuBeNo wrote:(A little bit more explaining text or a link appreciated)
Sorry, not now. Actually I'd love to make a short tutorial showing some useful things (not only strategies), but I'm rather busy man and I can't promise anything.

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Kanishka
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#3 » 07 Nov 2017, 18:24

A bit complex meta strats:

Smuggling (catch in mid battle)
Rushing (catch at first)
Pushing (we all know)
Dancing (both resource and range based)
Arena Positioning System (using bases and Bots and resources, used for flanking and retreat.)
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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MrChris
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#4 » 08 Nov 2017, 02:41

I think the advice you'd give to new players is the same advice you'd give to any players, and it has to be based on what the current best known strategies are in the game, i.e. what the top players do. The best strategy has changed a few times since the game was released, and I'm sure it will change again.

In no particular order, the main ideas are:

1. Aggressivly push to medium range. Little damage is done at long range, so pushing to medium maximises your damage and also pushes your opponent, especially if you have many pushing at once. This is critical. Don't push when being attacked (I don't always follow this rule)

2. Retreat early when being attacked by units at medium range. Don't wait until your shield is <25%, otherwise those enemy units attacking you at medium range will continue to attack you as you move into long range, which is something you want to avoid with such a low shield. If you're being attacked my a machine gun and shotgun at medium range then you'll probably want to retreat at all shield/health levels.

3. Pay a lot of attention to your opponent's sniper. Your sniper should prioritize attacking the enemies sniper. If your sniper hits the opponent's sniper then it's probably worth changing the attack target of all your nearby units to it even if they are attacking medium range units (and only if it is safe/worthwhile doing so)

4. When attacking, tend to prioritise enemies that are already being attacked by your allies. If no enemies are being attacked by an ally then only attack enemies that are attacking or retreating. If no allies are attacking or retreating, then push(move) towards your enemy.

5. The shotgun should not always start shooting at the first unit it sees at medium range. Its good to get as close as you can to medium range units, especially if they are retreating or being attacked by an ally. This will give your shotgun more medium range shots as the enemy unit tries to escape from medium range. One of my SG rules is that it will only stop moving towards medium range units when at-least 2 units are in medium range.

6. The best way to collect resources depends on your current strategy and how well you are doing against the playerbase. Your resource collecting strategy will change as you change so I can't recommend one specific technique. It's ok to not focus on resource collecting while you hone other more important bits of your AI.

7. Minimise the time you spend switching your attack target. I have rules for when to switch. For the sniper and machine gun, whose reload time is quite long, it's especially important.

8. New players can totally ignore tagging for now when . They will waste a lot of time with them if they start using them.

9. Group your units together. Players do this in various ways. Many will move the unit to the nearest ally during a game if they wander too far away. I don't do that.

The above are not strict rules and there will be many exceptions, but I believe the top 3-4 players apply most of them in some form or other.
Last edited by MrChris on 08 Nov 2017, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#5 » 08 Nov 2017, 03:15

Well.. I'm not grandmaster... But I would echo Chris's statement of retreating when being attacked at shield levels other than 25%.

Some important things for me as an average player are(Diamond1400-1600):

1. Retreat at shield level other than 25% (from closest enemy attacking self)
2. Continuously attacking enemy bots(this was a new concept for me)
3. Attacking enemies nearby allies are attacking(focus fire)
4. Focusing 25% or less shield enemies down(if you don't do this you'll never kill a bot)
5. Move towards closest resource when out of range / pick up (good for scoring off pushes)

mcompany
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#6 » 08 Nov 2017, 04:04

*Sigh*. The laptop I'm using has a broken left CTRL key. This is currently version 2 of this writing after I had already gotten through most of my points... And I'm mostly tired, and don't like writing a bunch, and hopefully it doesn't end up refreshing the page again and annoying me even more
It seems I have some slightly different opinions than most of y'all, so I guess I'll write them
1. I can definitely say that of Chris's points, 2,3,6, and 8 is definitely spot on while 7 is simply once again explaining what currently targeted is.
2. Don't explain dancing. As a tool used to trick enemy bots, it is definitely outdated and beaten by currently targeted, and for the most part, if you are dancing, it usually is for the purpose of retreating to save your shield, because you almost never can never get away with dancing as a trick anymore
3. Both grouping together and focusing your fire definitely comes with pros and cons that many should be wary about. Grouping especially isn't something that I really think is necessarily good considering both the limitations in the information the bots has access to and that any time spent grouping is time lost not pushing.
4. While Chris is correct that one should push towards getting in medium range, it definitely far from risk free, and always attacking second (as Chris makes it seem) is imo not the best of advice. While pushing is just overall important, a bad push can easily turn out much more horribly than not pushing at all. Thus, imo, it isn't good advice for beginners.
5. Besides attacking the currently targeted enemy maybe focus firing, I'm not exactly certain how useful it would be to have strategies of which things to prioritize for attacking for a beginner, and I feel like what is best will change more and more depending on the situation at hand.

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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#7 » 08 Nov 2017, 04:46

Beginners should avoid tagging for combat. Bad idea, too slow. >.<

MrChris
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#8 » 08 Nov 2017, 10:19

mcompany wrote:[size=20]
4. While Chris is correct that one should push towards getting in medium range, it definitely far from risk free, and always attacking second (as Chris makes it seem) is imo not the best of advice. While pushing is just overall important, a bad push can easily turn out much more horribly than not pushing at all. Thus, imo, it isn't good advice for beginners.
.


Sure, there are risks. But this technique is currently the best known technique out there used by the top 4-5 players. If mcompany's new style, which doesn't aggressivly push to medium, ends up beating the top guys then this technique will be considered the best strategy. Beginners should aim for the best strategies (unless they have some other ideas they want to try). A beginner that attempts to push to medium range will have a massive advantage over those that don't, even if it isn't implemented well. Pushing to medium and then added new retreatment cases as they arise is fairly simple and would be an effective starting strategy for a beginner.
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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#9 » 09 Nov 2017, 21:23

MrChris wrote:I think the advice you'd give to new players is the same advice you'd give to any players, and it has to be based on what the current best known strategies are in the game, i.e. what the top players do. The best strategy has changed a few times since the game was released, and I'm sure it will change again.

In no particular order, the main ideas are:

1. Aggressivly push to medium range. Little damage is done at long range, so pushing to medium maximises your damage and also pushes your opponent, especially if you have many pushing at once. This is critical. Don't push when being attacked (I don't always follow this rule)

2. Retreat early when being attacked by units at medium range. Don't wait until your shield is <25%, otherwise those enemy units attacking you at medium range will continue to attack you as you move into long range, which is something you want to avoid with such a low shield. If you're being attacked my a machine gun and shotgun at medium range then you'll probably want to retreat at all shield/health levels.

3. Pay a lot of attention to your opponent's sniper. Your sniper should prioritize attacking the enemies sniper. If your sniper hits the opponent's sniper then it's probably worth changing the attack target of all your nearby units to it even if they are attacking medium range units (and only if it is safe/worthwhile doing so)

4. When attacking, tend to prioritise enemies that are already being attacked by your allies. If no enemies are being attacked by an ally then only attack enemies that are attacking or retreating. If no allies are attacking or retreating, then push(move) towards your enemy.

5. The shotgun should not always start shooting at the first unit it sees at medium range. Its good to get as close as you can to medium range units, especially if they are retreating or being attacked by an ally. This will give your shotgun more medium range shots as the enemy unit tries to escape from medium range. One of my SG rules is that it will only stop moving towards medium range units when at-least 2 units are in medium range.

6. The best way to collect resources depends on your current strategy and how well you are doing against the playerbase. Your resource collecting strategy will change as you change so I can't recommend one specific technique. It's ok to not focus on resource collecting while you hone other more important bits of your AI.

7. Minimise the time you spend switching your attack target. I have rules for when to switch. For the sniper and machine gun, whose reload time is quite long, it's especially important.

8. New players can totally ignore tagging for now when . They will waste a lot of time with them if they start using them.

9. Group your units together. Players do this in various ways. Many will move the unit to the nearest ally during a game if they wander too far away. I don't do that.

The above are not strict rules and there will be many exceptions, but I believe the top 3-4 players apply most of them in some form or other.


Nice collection. I second all of these tipps and my AI is designed like describe in this points.

Only thing I would add is to think about maintainability. Don't use to complicated structures, map and bot specific stuff. It' easier to make one generic AI then to handle a truckload of specualized ones.

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LuBeNo
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#10 » 10 Nov 2017, 07:16

Thank you all for the feedback so far. Looks like really good points worth mentioning.
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#11 » 11 Nov 2017, 18:24

I think it would be pretty good if there were a list of guest articles from the top players. This would allow them to explain the most important ideas behind their AIs.
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Re: Strategies featured in the Wiki

Post#12 » 11 Nov 2017, 20:14

MrChris wrote:I think it would be pretty good if there were a list of guest articles from the top players. This would allow them to explain the most important ideas behind their AIs.


Like a guide? I think that would be great. Maybe we could add an entire section to the wiki as a basic fundamental strategy guide. (Or make it elsewhere if anyone has any ideas)

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