Your feedback on the Toornament platform

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GFX47
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Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#1 » 05 Aug 2017, 18:24

Hi guys,

I gave my first feedback about the platform to the Toornament guys but would like to gather yours and send it to them too.

Please focus on the Toornament website only and tell me if your feedback is about the organizator or participant side.

pier4r
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#2 » 05 Aug 2017, 18:31

Well:

- system, not bad in general
(as usual for those system, it is very limited (forced) and things cannot be easily changed)
- lack of documentation, yes they have their blog, but still.
- if games are played and then something arise that one wants to change the scores (for example, one is disqualified) one cannot do it anymore. At least in the swiss tournament (if the round in which the game is got superseeded by a new round)
- not clear how to set a schedule for the swiss tournament aside from announcing it.
- no markup language (like markdown) in the rules so it is not easy to emphasize information.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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LuBeNo
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#3 » 05 Aug 2017, 18:38

From a player only perspective: IMO the site is fine. I couldn't find a way to upload results.

Partly OT: The only problems I had was the very long duration of the tournaments and that people didn't play, one had to recreate games. (creating 8 games for a round in Gladiabots is a pain) Perhaps automatic emails to the players of a match would be good. Schedules were moved again and again. Automatic game creation would solve very much of this.
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mcompany
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#4 » 05 Aug 2017, 19:55

Note: I'm definitely biased for my use of challonge (and I definitely think challonge is better). However, if I'm only speaking of toournament, and aren't comparing the two, I'd have to only complain about to fact that the website layout is pretty confusing if you aren't used to it. "Schedule" don't have the list of matches for the round (to get that, you have to use the dropdown menu on "matches" and pick "swiss-style", and then go to another dropdown menu the pick the round (and then that dropdown menu is slightly bugged on mobile))

Arcueid_57
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#5 » 05 Aug 2017, 20:01

I'm use to it for other games, easy to use for organisor and players. I like it.

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GFX47
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#6 » 05 Aug 2017, 20:35

mcompany wrote:Note: I'm definitely biased for my use of challonge (and I definitely think challonge is better)


Could you please detail why you think challonge is better?

pier4r
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#7 » 05 Aug 2017, 21:49

LuBeNo wrote:
Partly OT: The only problems I had was the very long duration of the tournaments


Well I have to say that I had in mind to have one tournament in one week or less, more or less everyone vs everyone (round robin, not double). But then I read your suggestion that giving 2 das per round is good due to real life commitments, so I adopted it. 2 days are not enough to adapt one ai to the enemy (not with the current activity at least) but give everyone time around the globe to reply to the matches.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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LuBeNo
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#8 » 05 Aug 2017, 21:55

pier4r wrote:
LuBeNo wrote:
Partly OT: The only problems I had was the very long duration of the tournaments


Well I have to say that I had in mind to have one tournament in one week or less, more or less everyone vs everyone (round robin, not double). But then I read your suggestion that giving 2 das per round is good due to real life commitments, so I adopted it. 2 days are not enough to adapt one ai to the enemy (not with the current activity at least) but give everyone time around the globe to reply to the matches.

The problem are the players that lost interest / didn't play their games. I really don't like that games are not played and the game master has to run after each game. This is not nice. A deploy at start and use this AI for every round would be nice. Or automatic created games.
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pier4r
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#9 » 05 Aug 2017, 22:01

Yes I agree that is not nice (some player did not lose interest, did not care from the start) but as organizer I am used to.

Actually I developed my own way of ranking based on POsets (partially ordered sets) that rewarded the activity and worked pretty good for online chess tournaments of a community. The same is for some unavoidable tournaments, not everyone plays equally and one has to balance things. (actually I need to compute past unavodable tournaments, but I still don't have the servers, plus I need to change some algorithms)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

mcompany
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#10 » 05 Aug 2017, 22:39

GFX47 wrote:Could you please detail why you think challonge is better?

Mostly the website layout. Like I said with toournament, navigating to where the matches are and the current standings seems like a mess of menus a lot of the time, and most of the menus aren't named we'll, making it more confusing to the uninitiated. On challonge, all of the matches are on the main page, as well the description of the tournament and even the standings (although the standings only are on the main page if it is a round robin or a Swiss tourney). After that, you have a normal way to click to the standings or the settings (settings ate only accessable if you are an admin) with simple links at the top (and only a menu for the mobile website)

Other than that, I know that challonge allows you to reset all of the scores in case you made a mistake somewhere or you have to add a player after it officially started. Also challonge allows you to make a specific URL for each tournament rather than it always being random. I think even some users can get their own "websites" there for their brackets (such as spd.challonge.com which is made by a group called "serious pizza discussion").

pier4r
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#11 » 05 Aug 2017, 23:17

Uh the last part looks neat.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

eMeRiKa
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#12 » 07 Aug 2017, 18:45

Hello,

I'm Antoine the founder and director of Toornament.com. Thanks for your interest and feedback about our platform. We really care a lot about feedback.

On an organizer perspective, Toornament is more powerfull than challonge (advanced structure options, widgets, mobile app, tv module...), but on a player perspective we know that we have some work to do to make it more easy and friendly. Good news, we are currently working on that. I can share with you a preview of what we are working. We will kill what we call the "Participant Dashboard" and directly display participant information in the public website.

Thanks to GFX47 and our API, a direct integration of the game with our platform should also make it easy for you to play Gladiabots tournaments.

In any case, don't hesitate to contact us to send more feedback ;)

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Kanishka
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#13 » 07 Aug 2017, 18:50

eMeRiKa wrote:...


Hi, I'm the organizer of the first Unofficial Gladiabots tournament on Toornament. I can certainly say that it was a very easy process. I really like the player reporting option.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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pier4r
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#14 » 07 Aug 2017, 19:01

Cool they listen for real.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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GFX47
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#15 » 07 Aug 2017, 21:29

Hey eMeRiKa, thanks for stopping by!
Can't wait to see your next updates.

eMeRiKa
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#16 » 08 Aug 2017, 10:14

Kanishka wrote:Hi, I'm the organizer of the first Unofficial Gladiabots tournament on Toornament. I can certainly say that it was a very easy process. I really like the player reporting option.


Great news :)

We have added Gladiabots, please switch to this game than the "Generic Discipline" when you create your tournament: https://www.toornament.com/games/gladiabots

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Kanishka
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#17 » 08 Aug 2017, 15:15

eMeRiKa wrote:We have added Gladiabots, please switch to this game than the "Generic Discipline" when you create your tournament: https://www.toornament.com/games/gladiabots


Will do.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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mcompany
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#18 » 08 Aug 2017, 18:08

eMeRiKa wrote:...

Oh cool, the founder of toournament. Then I can request this directly:
1. Do you know why in dolphin browser (on android) that the drop down menu for the rounds of a Swiss/round robin tournament glitch out a bit
2. Can you please make actually viewing the matches of the rounds and the standings not hidden behind menu option after menu option. It is a bit annoying to navigate through just to get one of the most important pieces of info of any tournament
3. Is there any plan to somehow show all rounds of a Swiss/round robin on one page instead of being forced to navigate between more and more pages just to compare matches?

eMeRiKa
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#19 » 09 Aug 2017, 10:03

mcompany wrote:Oh cool, the founder of toournament. Then I can request this directly:
1. Do you know why in dolphin browser (on android) that the drop down menu for the rounds of a Swiss/round robin tournament glitch out a bit
2. Can you please make actually viewing the matches of the rounds and the standings not hidden behind menu option after menu option. It is a bit annoying to navigate through just to get one of the most important pieces of info of any tournament
3. Is there any plan to somehow show all rounds of a Swiss/round robin on one page instead of being forced to navigate between more and more pages just to compare matches?


1. Can you send me a screenshot of the bug please (contact{[@]}toornament.com)
2. Usually if your tournament is running, the public page will redirect directly to the current stage. This page if it's a swiss. Then you have the rounds menu. It's the better solution we found. If you have one other solution, I will be glad to hear it.
3. Sure go to the Latest results page in the matches menu. You will found all the matches.

mcompany
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Re: Your feedback on the Toornament platform

Post#20 » 09 Aug 2017, 23:27

eMeRiKa wrote:1. Can you send me a screenshot of the bug please (contact{[@]}toornament.com)
2. Usually if your tournament is running, the public page will redirect directly to the current stage. This page if it's a swiss. Then you have the rounds menu. It's the better solution we found. If you have one other solution, I will be glad to hear it.
3. Sure go to the Latest results page in the matches menu. You will found all the matches.

1. Done

2. Yeah, but if we assume we use a link to the description page, we still have to first see the standings in a round robin or a swiss tournament to get to the menu to go to the current round (something that is more important than the standing if you still have a match open), and then you only get information of the current round and nothing else. I still have to go through menus to find out about other rounds.

If I look at Challonge, literally anything a participant would need is on one page: the matches, the standings (for swiss/round robin), the description, the match details just show up in a little box on that same page, and it is super simple. I don't have to jump through 2 menus just to see only one round of matches. Even if I take the first round robin I can find on smash.gg, looking at the matches played is pretty simple (probably the most detailed system I have ever seen), and navigating from the matches to the standings is just 1 click, not 4. Idk, what you might want to keep up with a certain look or style to your bracket maker, but definitely cutting down on the dropdown menus and putting all matches on one page as a default (and using the current way if they want more details) just sounds better overall.

3. For round robins, I just that works, but for swiss systems or brackets the fact that all of the matches are 100% unorganized (besides last played) gives almost no information beside the match played, particularly when the results of the previous matches affect the results of the next matches

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