New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

buzzefall
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New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#1 » 27 Jun 2017, 21:02

The idea is to make:
1. Any number of tags able for setup before battle (in AI code, with custom naming)
2. To hold on each tick N flags for each tag and for each enemy
3. When tag is used on certain enemy (set up, or removed) mark that tag with flag (only for that enemy)
4. Repeat according to code design, or until all the flags are used on one enemy (All at the same tick of the game)
5. Allow to erase all the tags from each enemy once per game tick without use of any flags (it will give you an ability to erase tags from enemy firstly and then setup up to N tags for him).

* Gives not more than MAX amount (MAX is the amount of unique named tags in your AI code, assuming you can name them by Player) per enemy (+1 erase operation) - prevents loops
* Instantly tag everything you need, up to maximum amount of tags per enemy

If it would be possible to erase everything multiple times, well... it even may allow you to calculate something, partially erase memory and continue :D But I guess it would be enough to wait one tick for that, or tagging loops may be possible. Maybe it would be nice to have 2-3 erase operations to spare.

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#2 » 28 Jun 2017, 01:21

So for you counting to 1000 is the same as counting to 10?
Or i miss something?

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#3 » 28 Jun 2017, 02:47

Why not just have it go green and and tag, but otherwise act as if the node was red. You would get the same deal of being able to tag and act at the same time and completely avoiding loops, while getting more freedom over the tag usage by allowing loops put in on purpose

buzzefall
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#4 » 28 Jun 2017, 12:09

TheKidPunisher wrote:So for you counting to 1000 is the same as counting to 10?
Or i miss something?


mcompany wrote:Why not just have it go green and and tag, but otherwise act as if the node was red. You would get the same deal of being able to tag and act at the same time and completely avoiding loops, while getting more freedom over the tag usage by allowing loops put in on purpose


I think I don't get you both, really. If you were saying more precise..

To KidPunisher: I don't get your irony or whatever, explain yourself.

To Morris: ofcourse node will be green until all the flags are exhausted for each enemy or the node becomes red due to ordinary cause. And if I get you right, you want to let Tag Node go green after use and ignore it, then repeat tagging process until all the Tag nodes are green or red? Well, if so, you will only be able to perform one Tag E operation for all the enemies, while if you would flag them separately for each enemy, you will be able to Tag E more than one enemy per tick. Basically it's like let node go green but for each enemy separately

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#5 » 28 Jun 2017, 12:50

If i understand your first post you want to do several tag at the same speed as 1 tag?

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GFX47
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#6 » 28 Jun 2017, 20:54

Tags should become instant in alpha 12.
It will become possible once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.

buzzefall
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#7 » 28 Jun 2017, 21:40

okay, just suggested another alternative

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#8 » 28 Jun 2017, 22:52

buzzefall wrote:To Morris: ofcourse node will be green until all the flags are exhausted for each enemy or the node becomes red due to ordinary cause. And if I get you right, you want to let Tag Node go green after use and ignore it, then repeat tagging process until all the Tag nodes are green or red? Well, if so, you will only be able to perform one Tag E operation for all the enemies, while if you would flag them separately for each enemy, you will be able to Tag E more than one enemy per tick. Basically it's like let node go green but for each enemy separately

I think you misunderstand. I mean that it would probably be better to not have the whole system of not being able to tag an enemy with a particular tag if you already tagged it (or untagged it) with that particular tag. It is guaranteed not to naturally tend itself to loops (unless you write bad code) because the AI isn't completely restarting all of its checks but instead continuing from where it left off before the tag (as if the tag node went red) and the editor already tries to stop loops on itself. So you could perform an infinite number of tags on an infinite number of bots an infinite number of times if you really wanted to
GFX47 wrote:Tags should become instant in alpha 12.
It will become possible once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.

Honestly, while I am excited for some sort of instant tagging feature, I personally think that specifically limiting team tags to the leader class wouldn't be a good idea

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#9 » 29 Jun 2017, 10:24

GFX47 wrote:Tags should become instant in alpha 12.
It will become possible once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.


What? so no more only assault team... leader class will be always use (maybe not on mind game) or maybe let other class use team tag but not instant...

harthag
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#10 » 29 Jun 2017, 14:20

GFX47 wrote:... once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.
-1
TheKidPunisher wrote:... maybe let other class use team tag but not instant...
+1

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#11 » 29 Jun 2017, 17:57

harthag wrote:
TheKidPunisher wrote:... maybe let other class use team tag but not instant...
+1

No, that doesn't solve anything either. Personally, I don't understand why there is such a necessity to make tags have a cost

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#12 » 29 Jun 2017, 18:08

So you prefer to have no choice but to use the leader class for tag?

For it is normal that tag take time, i cant do a classification instantly myself it seems logic for me that tags take time (because i tag something when it correspond to some criterion, or when i count which take time to)

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GFX47
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#13 » 29 Jun 2017, 18:22

Some clarification: leader class will be the only one able the modify team tags but every teammate will be able to read them.

Instant tags mean another action can be executed after a tagging action during an AI tick.
It also applies to tagging actions.
So you can have several tagging actions followed by a classic action during an AI tick.
Tagging actions rely on the existing tags.
During a single AI tick, you can chain instant tagging actions having the knowledge of what you just tagged or untagged.
Instant actions for a single bot are evaluated sequentially.

Team tags are shared.
The AI evaluations of two different bots are (virtually) simultaneous.
So if you give them both access to team tags modifications, they can't rely on the existing team tags to decide which tagging actions to execute.
That's why only one bot per team should be able to modify instant team tags.

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#14 » 29 Jun 2017, 18:43

TheKidPunisher wrote:So you prefer to have no choice but to use the leader class for tag?

For it is normal that tag take time, i cant do a classification instantly myself it seems logic for me that tags take time (because i tag something when it correspond to some criterion, or when i count which take time to)

No, I prefer if team tags were allowed to all bots and were instant. I basically has already said that in my posts leading to this.
GFX47 wrote:leader class will be the only one able the modify team tags but every teammate will be able to read them.

I still think this this will be a bad idea

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Kanishka
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#15 » 29 Jun 2017, 18:47

GFX47 wrote:That's why only one bot per team should be able to modify instant team tags.


Why not go back to old days, and give SG super-processor aka instant tagging, and others get a old-ass-processor aka half tick tagging? (Yes, half tick instead of one fourth. Better than no Modify permissions.) Though exclusive Modify access to one special Bot would be strategically lip-smacking. Like chess, it'd be like "Protect ally king, destroy enemy king."
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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GFX47
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#16 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:13

Kanishka wrote:Why not go back to old days, and give SG super-processor aka instant tagging, and others get a old-ass-processor aka half tick tagging?


It could indeed be a first step.
But I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#17 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:22

GFX47 wrote:
Kanishka wrote:Why not go back to old days, and give SG super-processor aka instant tagging, and others get a old-ass-processor aka half tick tagging?


It could indeed be a first step.
But I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.



*cries* my poor little assault team will retrograde so much *cries*

Ahem, an idea appeared: why not integrate a leader selection in the match formation?

I explain: you go for a match, choose your bots, their AI... and at the end choose a leader! And only this bot can read tagging action in the AI (for all other it will return false)

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Kanishka
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#18 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:23

GFX47 wrote:
Kanishka wrote:Why not go back to old days, and give SG super-processor aka instant tagging, and others get a old-ass-processor aka half tick tagging?


It could indeed be a first step.
But I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.


Did you read the last half of my post?
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#19 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:29

GFX47 wrote:But I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.

Honestly I doubt that would end up happening unless there was some REALLY good reason to rely on the leader, but I doubt just team tags without any other way to gain the information is going to make that happen, and I also doubt that no other player would make a leader system if the leader bot class wasn't in the game and team tags were instant anyways

harthag
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#20 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:40

GFX47 wrote: I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.

If you want to do it that way just cause you like it, go for it, it's your game.

Personally, I think variety of possibilities is one of the best aspects of the game, so making one specific class "crucial" is a step backward from the variety appeal, by limiting options instead of increasing them
Last edited by harthag on 29 Jun 2017, 19:48, edited 1 time in total.

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