New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Ein Stein
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New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#1 » 25 Jun 2017, 08:44

I got this idea when playing Clash Royale. By far all units in Gladiabots are ranged units, so it should be interesting to see a melee attacker roaming in the arena.

Description:
The Pekka is a humanoid robot warrior with a sword. Its armor is heavy and tough, resulting in its slow moving speed and durability. It won't attack until it's very close to its target, so be sure that its AI is well-designed!

Stats:
Health: 10000
Shield: 5000
Move speed (with and without ball): 0.3m/s
Max Damage: 2500
Hit speed: 2s
Hit Radius: short range=0.1*regular short
range, mid range=0.4*regular mid range, long range=0.7*regular long range
Real Damage: short range 100%, mid range 75%, long range 50%
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

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Kanishka
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#2 » 25 Jun 2017, 10:47

-∞
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Ein Stein
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#3 » 25 Jun 2017, 13:02

Kanishka wrote:-∞


What do you mean?
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

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Kanishka
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#4 » 25 Jun 2017, 14:12

Ein Stein wrote:
Kanishka wrote:-∞


What do you mean?


People give +1 (plus one) when they like something. They give -1 (minus one) when they don't. I gave -∞ (minus infinity) because I hate turning Gladiabots into another silly game's clone. But I have a deal: Make Supercell integrate AI controlled robots in their games, and you shall be considered. :P
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Kanishka
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#5 » 25 Jun 2017, 14:14

Logucally, though: PEKKA works in Clash since there is no FLEE there. In Gladiabots, as soon as enemy flees, attack broken.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Ein Stein
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#6 » 25 Jun 2017, 15:27

Kanishka wrote:Logucally, though: PEKKA works in Clash since there is no FLEE there. In Gladiabots, as soon as enemy flees, attack broken.


As Kanishka has said, the melee attacker can't attack once the enemy starts to flee. But given its heavy shield and health, it still functions as a tank. So how about remodeling this into a heavier tank (15000HP, 9000 shield for example) with very weak ranged damage?

Seeing this, people would think of the MG, but here's the difference: 1)this thing is much tankier than the MG, 2)this thing is slower, and 3)its damage is super weak, even at short range (unlike MG, whose damage is high at short and mid range).
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#7 » 25 Jun 2017, 15:43

Well I guess proposing ideas is not bad, at least those are possible inputs, although I don't like making a game similar to another (I mean with all the respect for clash of something, but Gladiabots is orders of magnitude more interesting already as it is). Surely having an array of different bot classes variates the strategies but may also bring back the heavy rock paper scissor of alpha 5.2.

Also Kanishka, on some browsers infinity is not shown.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#8 » 25 Jun 2017, 17:32

pier4r wrote:Also Kanishka, on some browsers infinity is not shown.


Ahh that.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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harthag
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#9 » 25 Jun 2017, 23:15

Regardless of the source of the idea, I think it has merit. Details would certainly need to be refined, but it could work very well in Gladiabots, if done right.

Regarding the issue of flee breaking the attack: easily resolved by making the total attack time take less than 1 tick. If it gets close enough to attack, the attack will (almost always) land because even if the enemy bot flees, the melee bot won't detect it until after the attack ends. Shotgun might be fast enough to "dodge" completely, but other bots wouldn't be, though retreat could reduce the damage.

Regarding making it a "tank", one option might be changing it's health and/or shield stats based on the melee bot's current action. Make it all but invincible when idling, slightly tougher than mg when moving, and slightly weaker than sniper while attacking, just as an example. Something like that would make it a serious threat, without making it op, and make it have very unique AI considerations on both attack and defense.

Personally, I'm on the fence on this, but I think it's an idea that deserves more positive feedback and attention than it has received so far

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Kanishka
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#10 » 26 Jun 2017, 09:42

@harthag: That would make Generics fail. The gane is about making AIs, not specializing in Bot Classes.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#11 » 26 Jun 2017, 22:17

Kanishka wrote:That would make Generics fail.
Generics? No idea what you mean by that.
Kanishka wrote: The gane is about making AIs, not specializing in Bot Classes.

I would argue that it's not about "making AIs", it's about "making AIs for bots". More and varied bots means more opportunity for making more and varied AIs. There are other ideas that would also allow for more varied AIs, and two of my favorites are 1) random maps and 2) giving bots positional/directional awareness.

Class variations are not my favorite idea, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#12 » 27 Jun 2017, 06:35

harthag wrote:...


Generics mean "something that works in all cases". The game is about making smart Bots that know what to do. They should be able to decide what to do, instead of the player setting nth specialized AI. Plus random maps will stop specialization, and directional awareness well let Bots be smarter.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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buzzefall
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#13 » 27 Jun 2017, 13:14

-

it would break current mechanics of shooter game. And even with that then why not to say: this is the era of pistols, cannons and machine guns - you won't stand with petty stick =) I see this isn't worth it

I'd suggested tank class (with cannon) and rework of damage/targeting system still will be needed this way.

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#14 » 28 Jun 2017, 00:27

Kanishka wrote:The game is about making smart Bots that know what to do.

Yes. That's exactly my point.

But it follows that knowing "what" to do depends on what they "can" do. Any increase to what they can do is also an increase to how smart they can become.

A bot that can recognize and appropriately respond to 5 different types of threats is smarter than the bot that can only deal with 4.

Random maps will stop specialization for specific preset maps, yes. It will not stop bot class specialization, no, but that is not what I was referring to. So random maps will promote smarter bots by encouraging AIs capable of dealing with (theoretically) infinite possible map layouts and positions instead of the current finite set of maps.

It sounds like we agree on directional awareness...
buzzefall wrote:it would break current mechanics of shooter game.
I would argue that the sniper's accuracy already breaks the same mechanics, just in the opposite extreme. Going from 100% accuracy to 0% accuracy by crossing a line is, in my opinion, a broken mechanic compared to the other bot classes.

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#15 » 28 Jun 2017, 08:50

buzzefall wrote:This is the era of pistols, cannons and machine guns - you won't stand with petty stick =) I see this isn't worth it


Well?
In the movie Transformers, where bullets and missiles fly around, Optimus Prime still wields a sword.
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#16 » 28 Jun 2017, 18:14

buzzefall wrote:This is the era of pistols, cannons and machine guns - you won't stand with petty stick
Yeah, in this age of firearms there are no heavily armored units wielding sticks and meant for close quarters combat ...
20170628_101130.jpg
20170628_101130.jpg (42.04 KiB) Viewed 1791 times
(those are US Marines, in case anyone's thinking to argue that only a small local police force or third world countries would use that type of unit)

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Kanishka
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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#17 » 29 Jun 2017, 07:29

NOOOOOOOOO
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#18 » 29 Jun 2017, 14:14

Kanishka wrote:NOOOOOOOOO
ok, you've convinced me(?) I can't argue with that logic ...

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#19 » 29 Jun 2017, 14:59

harthag wrote:
Kanishka wrote:NOOOOOOOOO
ok, you've convinced me(?) I can't argue with that logic ...


Lol no I actually posted this in the wrong thread. I intended to post it in Alpha 8.7. I like your logic. More things to master won't hurt. :D
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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Re: New bot class: Pekka (melee attacker)

Post#20 » 29 Jun 2017, 17:46

Kanishka wrote:Lol no I actually posted this in the wrong thread. I intended to post it in Alpha 8.7. :D

Yeah I saw it there too. :P
Kanishka wrote:I like your logic. More things to master won't hurt. :D
thanks. It drives me crazy when folks make unfounded claims, especially negative and critical ones.

Don't like it? Fine, just say so
Think it's broken? Ok, tell us why and how to fix it
Etc.

But people shouldn't just claim it's a "bad" idea unless they're ready to back it up with good reasons.

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