Create a commutator

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TheGnoo
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Create a commutator

Post#1 » 17 May 2017, 05:31

Hey guys,

I was trying to find a way to beat you :mrgreen: and I figured out I would really need a switch (or commutator).
It could just be the connector that could be edited like actions and conditions, and you decide to switch on/off.
If you switch on, a connector will switch the signal from 0 to 1 and 1 to 0. This way, you can create a massive algo with a bunch of conditions, and.. oh my god the possibilities are just insane.

What do you think ?

TheKidPunisher
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#2 » 17 May 2017, 05:34

Can you explain more please, i dont get it.

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Kanishka
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#3 » 17 May 2017, 05:52

A reverser? Nice.
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pier4r
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#4 » 17 May 2017, 10:31

You mean a 'not' node? Can you make a sketch and upload it (maybe using imgur.com)?
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TheGnoo
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#5 » 17 May 2017, 13:19

TheKidPunisher wrote:Can you explain more please, i dont get it.


Sorry I'm not that fluent in english, a picture would be better I think.

Kanishka wrote:A reverser? Nice.


Yes, exactly. Sorry I'm not that fluent in eng...

pier4r wrote:You mean a 'not' node? Can you make a sketch and upload it (maybe using imgur.com)?


Exactly ! Here it is :

Image

TheKidPunisher
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#6 » 17 May 2017, 13:24

Ok i see.but you can already do that by a succession of 2 connector. The on/off is if there is a link between the 2 or not.

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TheGnoo
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#7 » 17 May 2017, 13:50

Hmm, no, because with a commutator (or whatever its name could be), you can go from 0 to 1.
Look at this:

Image

If the switch is OFF:
It behaves as a normal connector : If any of the signals connected is 1, it returns 1. Otherwise it returns 0.
"OR" Gate

If the switch is ON:
It behaves as a reverser: If any of the signals connected is 1, it returns 0. Otherwise it returns 1.
"NOR" Gate

When I really think about it, I feel like connectors should be editable to chose between all logical gates:
OR
NOR
AND
NAND
XOR
...

But it's maybe too much changes and would be literally another game.

TheKidPunisher
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#8 » 17 May 2017, 14:53

Is it that you searched?
General discussion -> Logic gate model

You can do so much already, it just need some reflexion....

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TheGnoo
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#9 » 17 May 2017, 15:14

Of course you can do logic gates easily for one or two conditions, but by implementing this feature in a connector, you can easily do it for a group of conditions, and this is currently not possible (or this would take the half of the IA map).

I'll look for a nice example to illustrate what I mean asap.

pier4r
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#10 » 17 May 2017, 15:42

but the switch would be fixed, so if you select a NOT is always NOT, or has it to change due to other conditions?

if it is fixed, I do like the idea but could it not be simulated (for the moment) by a node?

Like "if self tag1 " or "if self not tag 1", sure, one spends a tag and time to do it.
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TheGnoo
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#11 » 17 May 2017, 22:49

You're actually right, I didn't think about it. So using a NOR gate is actually possible but costly.

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Kanishka
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#12 » 18 May 2017, 05:00

Brainstorming Mode Activated

Clearly, such logic gates will be hard to make in large GUI based AIs.

Why not make a Code Based editor with BASIC-like syntax? The interface would be a bit like Google Web Designer, for switching between the 2 modes. This should be unlocked at XP Level 8 ,1000 matches, or something similar. So only experienced players actually need complex logic. And only experienced players get complex logic. Thoughts?
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TheKidPunisher
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#13 » 18 May 2017, 05:29

I think that only having base permit to do all we want, it just take time and reflexion. If all is given to you there wont be hard time thinking anymore.

buzzefall
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#14 » 18 May 2017, 06:41

TheKidPunisher wrote:I think that only having base permit to do all we want, it just take time and reflexion. If all is given to you there wont be hard time thinking anymore.


That's totally wrong to me, because I think AI theme is infinitely deep, there are always challenges and problems - the more your opponents adapts, the more you have to. But lesser routine will make it even more fun.

mcompany
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#15 » 18 May 2017, 08:06

pier4r wrote:but the switch would be fixed, so if you select a NOT is always NOT, or has it to change due to other conditions?

if it is fixed, I do like the idea but could it not be simulated (for the moment) by a node?

Like "if self tag1 " or "if self not tag 1", sure, one spends a tag and time to do it.

I mean, you could do that, but I could see potential for connectors inverting to be more useful than negating a node.
Kanishka wrote:Brainstorming Mode Activated

Clearly, such logic gates will be hard to make in large GUI based AIs.

Why not make a Code Based editor with BASIC-like syntax? The interface would be a bit like Google Web Designer, for switching between the 2 modes. This should be unlocked at XP Level 8 ,1000 matches, or something similar. So only experienced players actually need complex logic. And only experienced players get complex logic. Thoughts?

I agree and disagree at the same time. While GUI AI would eventually become hard to manage compared to a code based AI and a GUI based AI probably couldn't do math, I still have no real problems with a GUI AI as long as it is still easy to work with (although it would be really cool if we had the option of either)
TheKidPunisher wrote:I think that only having base permit to do all we want, it just take time and reflexion. If all is given to you there wont be hard time thinking anymore.

I can't agree with this. There is too many layers that this game has for it too even attempt to simplify, and even then, I think we ate bound to complain about lack of info

pier4r
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#16 » 18 May 2017, 08:31

For the code based editor, it takes time and I would prefer to see the gui editor optimized
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Wozza
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#17 » 18 May 2017, 12:09

To me this reads like you are looking for a "switch" that persists between ticks.

Similar to what pier says above this is currently done in a limited form using tagging.

The classic example is you build an AI with specific logic based on the starting position on a particular map but that logic sits below a if self is not tagged X and if no ally is tagged X node. Then within the specific logic you have a some nodes that identify when you want to turn that logic off (normally because you know the match has moved beyond the starting position) and at that time you take the action Team Tag all allies X which effectively switches the logic off for the rest of the match.

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Kanishka
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#18 » 18 May 2017, 12:10

It is just way too hard to implement complex logic in GUI AI. GUI's purpose is to keep things simple.

pier4r wrote:For the code based editor, it takes time and I would prefer to see the gui editor optimized

Agreed.

BASIC should be easy for Gladiabots players... And it's optional anyway. And as I said, you can switch from Code to GUI and vice versa at any point of time. For complex calculations, well, you're better off in a Code Editor.

Also, there could be a choice of programming language... Ahem... Along with some tutorials. This would make Gladiabots attractive to lots of educational institutions!

There could be choice of QBasic, Small Basic, C# and C++, for example.

Technically it's possible to code a whole neural net. Way more efficient than using Neural Nets to make AIs.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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TheGnoo
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#19 » 18 May 2017, 13:18

I think that a code editor could change this beautiful game in a simple programming exercice, and removes all fun.
I have the feeling that the GUI IA editor makes all the difference because everyone can play, programmers and noobs like me. Just my opinion though.

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GFX47
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Re: Create a commutator

Post#20 » 18 May 2017, 14:14

The whole thing of this game is to give access to programming to players that don't want to learn/use a real language ^^'

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