ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

harthag
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Re: ai sense of direction.

Post#21 » 08 Feb 2017, 19:48

sethcohn wrote:Moving toward an item that is 'not front', will immediately MAKE it front, of course.


And that "immediately" part is why I feel this whole thing is a moot point. No matter what direction anything is in at the time, it is "immediately" front as soon as the AI makes the bot point at it. That makes all other directions useless, until (if ever) bot rotation speed becomes a thing, because then direction will make a huge difference in AI and tactic. Before then, it's a minor thing, and range is still the dominant factor by a significant margin.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#22 » 09 Feb 2017, 16:27

If its not clear enough its not for the gameplay right now, maybe its useless.


Random maps better 'navigation'?
But the rand mapa are symmetrical?
(4)new things, sensors/directions,
new things the ai in the game can define itself from other things, not just anywhere around itself but with more direct definition of the place.

Just posted the concept idea
here so it can drag better solutions.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

harthag
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#23 » 09 Feb 2017, 17:14

It's clear to me.

I thought defining where something is located in relation to the map itself was already on the roadmap, walls and points on the map and whatnot. I love that concept too, and I'm looking forward to it.

But defining where something is located in relation to the direction the bot is currently facing is a separate thing, and used for separate reasons and functions, and cannot be used to its fullest potential without a bot rotation speed as a factor. Yes, it could still be a thing, just not as significant as it could be, so I think it should wait until after bot rotaion is added as a factor(if that ever happens).

sethcohn
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Re: ai sense of direction.

Post#24 » 09 Feb 2017, 17:24

harthag wrote:
sethcohn wrote:Moving toward an item that is 'not front', will immediately MAKE it front, of course.


And that "immediately" part is why I feel this whole thing is a moot point.


I disagree. moving to the left or right of an object is very useful and needed. We can move toward or away, but not to the left or right (yet)

mcompany
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#25 » 09 Feb 2017, 17:28

There is at least one use for being able to define relative to ”self” and that is checking whether a bot is surrounded (to help avoid the zig zag retreat).

harthag
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#26 » 09 Feb 2017, 17:57

sethcohn wrote:moving to the left or right of an object is very useful and needed. We can move toward or away, but not to the left or right (yet)


I agree, but (in my mind) the movement itself is an entirely separate function from the directional idenitification aspect. And it is that movement aspect that I feel needs to be done first, and a key part of that should be bot rotation speed. That brings up a whole new set of issues, strafing(crabwalking), walking diagonally, retreating in reverse (as opposed to making a full turn and moving staright forward but in a new direction), etc.

mcompany wrote:There is at least one use for being able to define relative to ”self” and that is checking whether a bot is surrounded (to help avoid the zig zag retreat).

I've never said it wouldn't be useful. Just that its impact on the game is seriously increased if bot rotation is added first. And that without that bot rotation aspect, it's uses are less impactful.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#27 » 10 Feb 2017, 06:46

Im not in any expertise in this, this can be greatly modified with a better solution found. Its just a concept.

/////
mcompany wrote:There is at least one use for being able to define relative to ”self” and that is checking whether a bot is surrounded (to help avoid the zig zag retreat).


I mean yeah, i just found 3 ways to do that with the current game.
You can learn 2' ways here
Image


But can you check a surround like this?
-without tagging
-without counting?
-just an example this is useless and pixilated af :).
Image
-the sensors cant go out of range.

Full conditions for this.(again its useless)

Code: Select all

"Is there?" A resource "in my" 'front' at long range
"Is there?" A resource "in my" 'front+right' at medium range+
"Is there?" A resource "in my" 'back' at long range+
[Ally base exist meduim range or
"Is there?" An ally base "in my" 'left' at medium range]
Last edited by ConsciouS-0nE on 10 Feb 2017, 09:25, edited 2 times in total.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

pier4r
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#28 » 10 Feb 2017, 08:55

This thread is evolving very nice
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#29 » 10 Feb 2017, 13:39

https://trello.com/c/CSUmYy4s/24-condit ... of-the-map


Apparently im an idiot,
Base on this we have directions.

But this doesnt varry from the bots perspective right?
I dunno, this should adapt from team colors.

Ex. Map is seven wonders
Red team (enemy perspective)(stronger player)
Its back is opponents front
Vice versa

Blue team (players perspective)(weaker player)
Right is opponents left
Vice versa

So if im right, if you expected that your in blue team,
But turned out to be your on red team,
Conditions will not validate? from,
As example Above wich is wich, top, right, bottom, left.

Ooor this just made me even more idiotic indeed.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

harthag
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#30 » 10 Feb 2017, 15:06

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:https://trello.com/c/CSUmYy4s/24-conditions-for-distance-from-static-points-of-the-map

Base on this we have directions.


Yes, that's what I was referring to here:

harthag wrote:I thought defining where something is located in relation to the map itself was already on the roadmap, walls and points on the map and whatnot. I love that concept too, and I'm looking forward to it.


ConsciouS-0nE wrote:But this doesnt varry from the bots perspective right?


No, it doesn't, and that's why this thread about the directional thing from the 'bot perspective' is relevant.

firing arc.png
firing arc.png (18.72 KiB) Viewed 1646 times


Knowing where the bot is on the map, and which direction the other points of the map are on, will not help the bot know how to get unsurrounded, or which direction to flee, or which direction to go to outflank the enemy, etc. If this bot is in the situation above (red dots=enemy), knowing which direction the walls of the map are, or where other points on the map are, will not help the bot know that it's best hope for escape is "back+left".

mcompany
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Mcompany

Post#31 » 10 Feb 2017, 18:03

ConsciouS-0nE wrote:I mean yeah, i just found 3 ways to do that with the current game.
You can learn 2' ways here
Image

What are those methods? Because I've looked into the idea of into deeply and even with tags I haven't found a method to know if you are surrounded that didn't make a lot of assumptions.
harthag wrote:No, it doesn't, and that's why this thread about the directional thing from the 'bot perspective' is relevant.

firing arc.png


Knowing where the bot is on the map, and which direction the other points of the map are on, will not help the bot know how to get unsurrounded, or which direction to flee, or which direction to go to outflank the enemy, etc. If this bot is in the situation above (red dots=enemy), knowing which direction the walls of the map are, or where other points on the map are, will not help the bot know that it's best hope for escape is "back+left".


Well, you could always make an AI that adjusted where it was going to retreat whenever it turned around, so theoretically, knowing where it will retreat to in any situation still is helpful. Extremely complex, but helpful

harthag
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Re: Mcompany

Post#32 » 10 Feb 2017, 18:33

mcompany wrote:Well, you could always make an AI that adjusted where it was going to retreat whenever it turned around, so theoretically, knowing where it will retreat to in any situation still is helpful. Extremely complex, but helpful


Complex enough that I have a headache already, just contemplating it. But yes, theoretically possible, once the set points on the map are implemented. And (even more mind bogglingly complex, and less accurately) with enough bases on the map to serve as reference points before the fixed points on the map is implemented.

But then when you consider applications other than the (relatively) simple 'retreat', such as creating and moving formations (unless that is directly implemented as a function) or flanking maneuvers, coordinated attack patterns, crossfiring, and similar battlefield positional tactics, it starts getting really absurd without a direction reference for the bot itself. Even then it could get plenty complex, but would be much more manageable than without it.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: Mcompany

Post#33 » 11 Feb 2017, 10:56

mcompany wrote:What are those methods? Because I've looked into the idea of into deeply and even with tags I haven't found a method to know if you are surrounded that didn't make a lot of assumptions.


Well...... its pre a generated map,
The bots in the game cant 'exactly'
Say itself is surrounded,
But YOU can,
See maps barred spiral and crossfire.
100% chance on 'start up' that there will be a single/+ bot in your team that is surrounded by ENTITIES.
So the only thing you need to work with is the 'escape route'.

But ill show you some other surrounded scenarios later,
Maps would be
Slpit team, cod, seven wonders.
Zigzag escpace is moslty observed in MP-COD.



A) if you want to define your surround like this, youll never gonna escape this hell. (Rarely happens)
Even in any way i can think of.
MGBlitz81 wrote:I'm not sure what happened here... I feel like I don't deserve the win.

228735


*ConsciouS ur an eejit,
PUSH!*

re: uhmm were talking about escape sooo
'Get out!' ;)
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

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GFX47
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#34 » 11 Feb 2017, 23:05

Nice thread guys :)
My first impressions about it:
- I like the idea of 8 testable directions but once again it won't have much use unless a whole new set of actions are added (like "move toward X by the Y direction", etc) and localized damages (side hits causing more damages, etc) and customizable armors, etc. Endless feature requests spotted ^^
- rotation speed would be cool, more realistic and all but the game is not about realistic robot fights. Or we would have realistic collisions, ballistics, battery life, etc. The game remains focused on the AI crafting.

I'm at a point where if I want to release this game one day, I have to limit the new features.
Once again I'm not saying this directional "awareness" won't be implemented but I see it more as a risk of rising complexity (in term of player experience as of implementation) than as an added value to the game.

Hope you understand my point of view.

ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#35 » 12 Feb 2017, 05:47

I know, I know.
Its not even an official request, should have posted it on general discussion, but I placed a disclaimer somewhere I guess.

I just got this in mind, so was thinking might as well share it to everyone and see what they think about it.
But as said,
"Its not complete and doesnt have subtle edges, its just a 'concept' that maybe it will 'look like this' when the ai has its directional sense."

Case closed?, mmph maybe ill just leave this open for things.
Im not the best player, but atleast im something.I'm 8
Science is madness! 3:)

name101
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#36 » 12 Feb 2017, 10:41

Somewhere else, somebody mentioned better distance, shield and health range filters and conditions. It seems to me that if that is in the pipeline, direction could be added after that and use whatever the new "range" defining scheme/widget is that all those other metrics have already been retrofitted with by then.

Another thing I think gfx announced was a generalization of filters so that you could select things by their relation to anything else rather than self. With that in mind I will continue with "referent" as an additional object which may or may not also be self.

This means you would be defining an arbitrary range of direction of the target from a referent. But a way of selecting direction which is broken down into a couple of parts and has a toggle or two would be immensely versatile.

Options could be
  • use either target or referent or self or global's North direction
  • use direction of one of self, referent or target from one of the other two as the North direction
  • measure direction of referent from target or of target from referent

This means you have various ways to decide which direction is "forward" and which direction you're actually measuring relative to that.

One way this could be used is to check whether an enemy is moving at a tangent to self. You would do this by using target's facing direction as the reference choosing either the direction of self from target or vice versa and choosing a small direction range which is centered on either West of East. You would have to use it twice with a small change unless you can define split or multiple ranges.

UPDATE: it's been a while since I posted on a forum like this. I forgot the thread might have a page 2! So I'll add that obviously if directions are an ultra low priority then everything in this post is irrelevant.

harthag
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#37 » 13 Feb 2017, 23:45

GFX47 wrote:if I want to release this game one day, I have to limit the new features...Hope you understand my point of view

I completely understand. And if none of this ever happens for that reason, so be it, it's a great game already anyway.
GFX47 wrote:I'm not saying this directional "awareness" won't be implemented

With that hope in mind, I actually think only 4 direction tests is enough (F, B, L, R)(light green), not 8. If each of those has an arc of 135 degrees, the other 4 (F+R, F+L, B+R, B+L)(dark green) could be done by the AI/player(not by more additions to the game) just by checking two of the main 4, and seeing if there is any overlap (dark green).
firing arc.png
firing arc.png (49.16 KiB) Viewed 1566 times

GFX47 wrote:if I want to release this game one day, I have to limit the new features...added value to the game

Right now, the player can 'see' the game map, but the bot can't. Even with the upcoming addition of detecting boudaries and fixed points on the map, it will still be the player, not the bot, devising a strategy based on the map. With directional awareness, that can be changed so that the AI of the bot itself can be programmed to make tactical, and even strategic, decisions based on not just the map, but the enemy bots as well. For that reason, I can think of no other possible addition to the game that could focus the game more on crafting AI than this one.

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GFX47
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#38 » 14 Feb 2017, 00:30

By the way, what's the point of having directional awareness if you can't control the bot's orientation?

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Echo Blue
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#39 » 14 Feb 2017, 01:16

I mostly wanted this so that I have a better retreat (if attacked from X directions, retreat to Y direction). But if you implement that "Team" detection or some other type of averaging to the flee/chase commands, this thread may end up being moot.

Secondly, a way to ignore attackers if I am Carrying a resource instead of dropping the ball over almost any threat. (if enemies are "behind" me, Attacking/chasing, and the goal is "in front" of me, Ignore the enemies and high tail it to the base). I don't know how usefull this stratagy would be, though. I just assume that it would be.

LELEZ
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Re: ai sensors/directions?( for random maps)

Post#40 » 14 Feb 2017, 08:25

harthag wrote:With that hope in mind, I actually think only 4 direction tests is enough (F, B, L, R)(light green), not 8. If each of those has an arc of 135 degrees, the other 4 (F+R, F+L, B+R, B+L)(dark green) could be done by the AI/player(not by more additions to the game) just by checking two of the main 4, and seeing if there is any overlap (dark green).


I just wanted to tell you that all the area are manually check-able not only the dark green in the picture. If you start combining light green with the condition not. For example a not left not right not back existing enemy is straight in front of you, where just front would've told you a 135 degrees area for him.

Anyway, without the bot orientation to be a thing this is useless. And the bot orientation is a big thing on it's own. Probably better to keep the game simple

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