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Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 12:59
by NullPointer
We discussed this idea somewhere already, but I couldn't find in the Requests area.

The idea is to have a game mode where you deploy N bots without seeing the map. Ideally they would be randomly generated symmetrical maps, but they could come from a huge enough ever-changing pool of maps that no one would be able to create specific AIs for.

This way we would have 2 modes:

- specific maps (the 8 maps we play today)
- random maps

Not sure if they should share the same leaderboard, but maybe yes.

This would please both the players who like to design all the specific tweaks for each map and also the players that like to make bots smart. The latter is much more AI-like actually.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 13:12
by pier4r
+1 because I keep just 4 main ai per bot, not anymore stuff per map except some decorators

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 14:58
by GFX47
I'd like to keep everyone in the same competition so I think I'll focus on only one of them.
And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of random maps.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 16:34
by NullPointer
GFX47 wrote:I'd like to keep everyone in the same competition so I think I'll focus on only one of them.
And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of random maps.


+10

If you do that, we will be competing for the smartest AI, while today we are only competing for the most well tweaked AI for each map. I'd like to see how my bots adapt to unpredictable scenarios and be surprised in each match.

I'd like to add more thoughts to this request:

- you deploy 4 AIs, 1 for each class
- you may have multiple bots of any classes, like 3 snipers, for example.
- if you need 2 bots of the same class to perform different roles even though they have the same AI, you can use exclusive tags to elect which bot does what
- random amount of bots, resources and bases
- random map size
- random map shape (rectangular, triangular, circular, etc)
- one of the 2:
--- bots spawn with map boundaries at Long range or further
--- or map boundaries are simple walls
- any AI deployed stays on the field until removed or until matched against 10 other AIs (then you get a notification in your mobile)
- maximum of 5 resources and 6 bots per match, since we can't count them yet

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 16:53
by GFX47
I was thinking about keeping the choice of team composition (classes and AIs) to have an additional layer of strategy. Meaning you don't only implement your strategy by designing your AIs offline but also by making the right decision when in front of the generated map.
And having only 4 AIs (one per class) sounds frustrating.
What do you guys thing?

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 17:09
by ConsciouS-0nE
I make 1 ai for 4class

I think this should be short/long term tournaments first interrogation.

More tournaments,
All assaults mayhem.(people would say who will get to the boundary first, but no)

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 17:40
by NullPointer
GFX47 wrote:making the right decision when in front of the generated map


Not hiding the map from the player will actually encourage having even more specific AIs. Although maps will be randomly generated, we will be able to group them into patterns. There will be the CoD pattern, the 7 wonders pattern and a lot of others we haven't seen yet. I'll have then a lot of cards in my deck, one for each pattern I can recognise, therefore I'll have even more AIs than today.

What if you follow this order?
- select AIs beforehand
- show the map
- only then select formation

4 AIs may not sound like a lot, but with subtrees I have entire strategies underneath other strategies that are picked up dynamically. I actually have only 1 generic AI like Conscious that will expand into different subtrees per class. I don't use that generic AI anywhere today, but it's the base for all the others.

If you ever want to test a (pre)alpha version of this, the testers are here :)

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 17:43
by pier4r
GFX47 wrote:And having only 4 AIs (one per class) sounds frustrating.
What do you guys thing?

It is a lot of refinement actually, especially if the map would be random.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 17:45
by pier4r
NullPointer wrote:...


I support the point.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 18:12
by ConsciouS-0nE
tournaments it is?
<3

*if successful interrogation would be a multiplayer rather than just short/long term tournaments, to see if people would like em.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 18:40
by pier4r
Conscious I cannot follow many of your posts.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 18:56
by GFX47
pier4r wrote:Conscious I cannot follow many of your posts.


Image

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 19:07
by sethcohn
I envision this (might conflict with ideas above)

Random map...
If resources _and_ bases exist... then score matters.
If no resources exist then bases might exist or not, but it's still Elimination play (Spiral set that precedent)

Placement is random, _and_ bot types are random. Player's only input is to pick an AI for each bot. So if you end up on a map where the sniper is smack in the middle of the enemy, you better have a good AI to handle that... not just able to change it to a MG cause that would be better for you.

Alternatively, force a single AI for all bots. That would increase the size and complexity of the AIs we have to write... The downside is that with custom AIs for each bot, you can look at the situation and say "Oh, this bot can just run right and grab resources... I'll put my grabber AI on him..." With "one AI to run them all", you won't be able to do that, you'll have to have code that sees the opportunity (if resource and ally base are within medium and no enemy is within long, run grabber subtree [for example]

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 25 Jan 2017, 19:31
by Kanishka
GFX47 wrote:
pier4r wrote:Conscious I cannot follow many of your posts.


Image


Same here.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 26 Jan 2017, 07:52
by ConsciouS-0nE
Screenshot_2017-01-26-14-45-44.png
Screenshot_2017-01-26-14-45-44.png (76.83 KiB) Viewed 2381 times



I mean, I want this kind of multiplayers.
But we need to see how other players react to it first.

So by implementing it into the game, but as a open Tournaments
Short term, 2-8 days or more but will expire if people wont like it
Long term, weeks or months until expiration to gain more data about people liking it.

So if people would agree with this alot this can be fully implemented to the game.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 26 Jan 2017, 08:12
by pier4r
Well actually there is a nice point in your post. Gfx could implement tournaments very easily just saying "those ranked games from day X to day Y, between members of the tournament, do not count only for the ladder but also for the tournament and in the tournament those have fixed points for win /defeat /draw".

So while not being a complete tournament it is a start for those, and avoids my unavoidable tournaments.

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 27 Jan 2017, 00:11
by Hamster
perhaps even more interesting would be random map + random team comp (bots and their placement).

and moreover, if you make a match a best of 2 (one game per side) we wouldn't have to worry about map balance; If one side is totally favoured both players get a chance to play as that side.

With this said, one possible downside is a lot of draws. (e.g both players win as player 1).


I guess I like the idea of watching a totally random map encounter with something like 5 assults vs 3 snipers. What AI adapts best?

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 30 Jan 2017, 13:45
by NullPointer
GFX, any chance this will happen? At least a POC?

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 30 Jan 2017, 22:16
by GFX47
NullPointer wrote:GFX, any chance this will happen? At least a POC?


If you're talking about random maps, yes.
Just not in Alpha 8.
https://trello.com/c/btQsMwJP/461-repla ... andom-maps

Re: Randomly generated maps

Posted: 30 Jan 2017, 22:38
by NullPointer
GFX47 wrote:
NullPointer wrote:GFX, any chance this will happen? At least a POC?


If you're talking about random maps, yes.
Just not in Alpha 8.
https://trello.com/c/btQsMwJP/461-repla ... andom-maps


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