Randomly generated maps

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NullPointer
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#21 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:11

GFX, any chance we can convince you to prioritise this? No one is posting here, but this popped up in the chat a couple of times.

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TcT
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#22 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:15

+1

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GFX47
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#23 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:15

I'm focused on the new comer experience right now (tutorials, AI editor refactoring) to prepare the events of february.
I don't think I'll have time to do anything else before march.
But it's clearly the most prioritary thing after that.

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TcT
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#24 » 03 Feb 2017, 14:19

that s also nice.

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#25 » 03 Feb 2017, 15:27

:D

+1

I'm sure random maps will bring a big change away from tweaking. I'm strongly supporting that idea.

Imho the ballance for group composition (one from each special bot) is well ballanced,I wouldn't change that.

How about playing every map twice per player, one time red, one time white. So the maps don't have to be balanced.
When you setup a match, you set it up for both sides. And then you play both sides. That could bring interesting new strategies and tactics. Many unsymmetrical maps are possible with that approach like defense vs. rush, 5 vs 3 with different tasks, ...

harthag
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#26 » 09 Feb 2017, 22:02

If both random, and pre-built maps are kept together, I think they should share a leaderboard, yes.

NullPointer wrote:we will be competing for the smartest AI, while today we are only competing for the most well tweaked AI for each map.


Exactly ^ !

Ritter Runkel wrote:How about playing every map twice per player, one time red, one time white. So the maps don't have to be balanced.
When you setup a match, you set it up for both sides. And then you play both sides. That could bring interesting new strategies and tactics. Many unsymmetrical maps are possible with that approach like defense vs. rush, 5 vs 3 with different tasks, ...


I like this idea also ^. Lots of possibilities for testing the depth of the AI, not just the 'tweaking' previously mentioned.

This is how I would do the order for match setup:
1. Map layout is generated, including bases, resources, and possible bot starting positions (both player and enemy positions), and displayed to the player
2. Player selects which bot types to place on which available starting positions.
3. Once both players lock in their starting positions and bot types, enemy positions and bot types are displayed (they can both see each other's positions, including which bot types are where)
4. Players select AIs based on what is known about not only the map, but also about enemy positions, and the match starts (being able to see enemy bot types before selecting AIs adds that extra level of strategy that GFX47 mentioned in an earlier post in this thread)

Trigary
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#27 » 09 Feb 2017, 22:28

I think starting positions and the layout of the enemy bots should be hidden as well. I'm not sure, but I think GFX47 shares this opinion. I prefer full random - unplannedness over semi. The method you describe would also take more time (The first player has to do something twice before the match is viewable).

harthag
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#28 » 09 Feb 2017, 22:56

Trigary wrote:I prefer full random - unplannedness over semi. The method you describe would also take more time (The first player has to do something twice before the match is viewable).


I understand your preference for full random. It certainly places more emphasis on the AIs, instead of bot placement. And you're right, it would take an extra step, and I considered that, though I can think of many possible ways of making this issue less problematic (put a timer on it and force placement if custom placement isn't done before time is up, as just one example)

As far as my setup using 'less' random, instead of 'full' random, that was based on this comment from earlier in the thread:

GFX47 wrote:I was thinking about keeping the choice of team composition (classes and AIs) to have an additional layer of strategy. Meaning you don't only implement your strategy by designing your AIs offline but also by making the right decision when in front of the generated map.


I assumed (though I don't know if the assumption was correct) that he meant making the decision in front of the generated map 'could' (not necessarily 'would') include knowledge of enemy bot placement

But I definitely agree that both ways have their pros and cons ...

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GFX47
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#29 » 11 Feb 2017, 22:27

An additional step would break the current "asynchronousness" of the multiplayer.
The system is designed to allow players to fight each other without having to be connected at the same time.

name101
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#30 » 12 Feb 2017, 13:22

Keeping the asynchronous nature of multiplayer intact also introduces the possibility - I'm just daydreaming about long term stuff here - of fire-and-forget tournaments, where players enter one AI at the start of a tournament and see the results when it's all over. Random maps throughout.

I suppose an extra step of user interaction could be taken asynchronously too, but then there would be loads of half-started matches in a queue for ages.

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NullPointer
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#31 » 18 Feb 2017, 22:23

I have played now more than 1500 games with only 1 generic AI in the account T-800 and the features that I'm missing the most are:

- flee from flanked position
- count Assault bots
- count secured resources in both sides
- count resources left

The first 2 are definitely the most important ones, but without the last 2 features, the bots have no idea when it's a good time to catch resources. Playing 7W and SYP with the same AI is a good example of this, so I ended up giving average priority to resources for all maps.

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NullPointer
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#32 » 18 Apr 2017, 15:02

Any chance random maps will be in Alpha 8?

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GFX47
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#33 » 18 Apr 2017, 16:10

Nope, sorry.
Alpha 8 is still focused on accessibility and I still have to finish the tutorials :/

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NullPointer
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#34 » 19 Apr 2017, 11:55

That does sound more important indeed.

Any chance we could have a vote then to replace 2 or 3 maps in Alpha 8 with community maps?
If I'm not wrong, I imagine that adding/removing static maps is not a heavy task, so if you have some space in Alpha 8's backlog, would be nice to have some new content as well.

Cheers

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GFX47
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Re: Randomly generated maps

Post#35 » 19 Apr 2017, 17:59

I'll see if I find some time to organize it.

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