New type of node: Computing Node

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NullPointer
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New type of node: Computing Node

Post#1 » 21 Dec 2016, 14:33

Robots take milliseconds to make decisions and seconds to act on it physically (unless you're an android from Dragon Ball Z). Today in 6.0 all types of actions are visible on the screen, you move, attack, catch or halt.

The tagging system introduced actions (tagging/untagging) that don't reflect physically on the bots and in the future we could have others such as "orders", "select formation", "change value of a variable" (if we have stateful AIs), etc. These are not physical actions, they are computing actions.

Given that, my suggestion is to treat Computing Actions as tick-less actions, meaning it would be instant and won't prevent the bot from doing a physical action in the same tick of the clock.

Computing actions could be rectangles with round borders or something like this in the AI editor. The way you create these nodes don't need to be different from physical action nodes, they just are drawn differently to indicate they are tick-less.

This request comes primarily from this discussion around Currently Targeted:
http://gfx47.com/games/Gladiabots/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=1950#p1950

We can't reproduce the Currently Targeted feature with the tagging system the way it is because tagging, a computing action, is taking too long:

- 0.5s to tag your current target,
- shoot
- target flees
- 0.5s to untag target since it's not the current target anymore

That's a 1 second overhead compared with the good old Currently Targeted.

HDeffo
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#2 » 21 Dec 2016, 14:45

//support

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Kanishka
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#3 » 21 Dec 2016, 14:48

//support
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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GFX47
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#4 » 21 Dec 2016, 15:12

It would break the core rules of the game and make the tagging actions impossible to debug (instant action cannot be seen in the debugger).

Please just do has if the "Currently targeted" filter never existed, it was a temporary "hack" I did for you guys to have something to use until the tagging system was implemented.

Reminder: the game is still in alpha stage, there may be other changes like this one on the road.

mcompany
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#5 » 21 Dec 2016, 15:23

What if computing nodes ran on the same tick system as now, but when it ran into a computing action, it can't do anymore computing actions, but it still continued until it reached the first normal action (but not vice versa, if a normal action comes before a computing action, it stops checking any further past the normal action and the computing action doesn't happen). That way tags would still cost a tick, but it would be seemingly instant and could be used alongside attacks to replace currently targeted

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NullPointer
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#6 » 21 Dec 2016, 15:29

GFX47 wrote:It would [...] make the tagging actions impossible to debug (instant action cannot be seen in the debugger).


Not really, I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. We would just see more than 1 action marked as green in the debugger per tick.

As for the core rules of the game, I'm not sure what you mean, but maybe it's related to the engine supporting only 1 action per iteration and this would require a list of actions to be returned instead.

The game will still be amazing without this feature and I know we are all used to the Currently Targeted, but still, I can see a better game if this 0.5s latency doesn't exist for tagging. And for that matter, tags being unique like in pretty much all other games.

HDeffo
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#7 » 21 Dec 2016, 15:33

The delay in tagging at least adds a ton of strategic elements to it

mcompany
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#8 » 21 Dec 2016, 15:43

NullPointer wrote:The game will still be amazing without this feature and I know we are all used to the Currently Targeted, but still, I can see a better game if this 0.5s latency doesn't exist for tagging. And for that matter, tags being unique like in pretty much all other games.


Technically, currently targeted had the .5s latency as well, the only difference was that it was applied during an action so it didn't matter. I do want tags to be on a system like this however, where tags can be applied and taken off during other actions

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HBomb
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#9 » 21 Dec 2016, 18:41

I'm currently using all five tags, all being taken on and off and I'm struggling to minimise the time cost...

1 & 2 for primary and secondary targets.
3 for judging duels (no other way to count a single enemy)
4 & 5 for assassinations.

Call me biased, but a tickless tagging system of any variant would be the best thing ever.

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Kanishka
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#10 » 22 Dec 2016, 06:47

HBomb wrote:I'm currently using all five tags, all being taken on and off and I'm struggling to minimise the time cost...

1 & 2 for primary and secondary targets.
3 for judging duels (no other way to count a single enemy)
4 & 5 for assassinations.

Call me biased, but a tickless tagging system of any variant would be the best thing ever.


I second that.
Fixes break an AI more than bugs do. :ugeek:

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ConsciouS-0nE
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#11 » 22 Dec 2016, 06:54

Put this in mind that,
The tagging system puts alot of delay in your bots executing things.








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mcompany
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#12 » 22 Dec 2016, 06:55

I still say that it shouldn't be tickless, but instead simultaneous

Otherwise, I do agree that the lag is a problem

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HBomb
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Re: New type of node: Computing Node

Post#13 » 22 Dec 2016, 07:05

When you play a team based game like league or Overwatch, you have personal decisions and team decisions.

You choose which target to aim for in a split second in overwatch and when to use ult in league. It's a quick decision that takes next to no time.

Your team captain chooses what strategy to employ, what direction the team should head in and what the current goals are.

To that extent, what if BotTags were instant (or simultaneous) and TeamTags cost a full tick as they do now? That way you can use them just like a human player would: personal decisions are quick and reactive, while team decisions are slower and proactive.

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