Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Miojo
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Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#1 » 01 Mar 2018, 07:34

One of the coolest things with the new tags is that we now have a huge pool of new strats to implement.
Probably the player that will rise above the others will be the one with the best and most creative tags.

Letting players see what tags you are using and when you are using just promotes cheap copying.
I can only see downsides to it. Players should look to the enemy BEHAVIOR and try to counter or implement things on their own way. They shouldn't be able to look at exactly what ticks he is using what tags and just copy the system.

mcompany
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#2 » 01 Mar 2018, 07:41

To be fair, most of the time tags are virtually impossible to decipher if they are encrypted enough

WASP103
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#3 » 01 Mar 2018, 08:05

Encrypted tags? Holy shoot, mcompany I can't even compare tags, how on earth should I encrypt them!

I'm not letting my tagmonster loose on the ladders yet, but I think if everyone can see my tags, I'm forked. :shock: :lol:

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GFX47
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#4 » 01 Mar 2018, 08:22

How do you see enemy tags right now?

mumpsimus
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#5 » 01 Mar 2018, 08:30

If you select an enemy bot you see its tags and team tags.

mcompany
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#6 » 01 Mar 2018, 08:52

WASP103 wrote:Encrypted tags? Holy shoot, mcompany I can't even compare tags, how on earth should I encrypt them!

I'm not letting my tagmonster loose on the ladders yet, but I think if everyone can see my tags, I'm forked. :shock: :lol:

I mean, my new system tags enemies as 2 if I want to move towards them and as 5 if I want to attack, and they also leave around miscellaneous 3 tags everywhere when 3 isn't actually designated as anything. Fretting from my 3 tags is unviable and I can just decide to tag a ransom bot as 3 right before I attack, fretting from my 2 tags is unviable because I'm not moving towards things constantly (I'm attacking), and trying to solve what 5 is can lead to me just attempting to be annoying and start switching between 4 and 5 while distributing random tags everywhere to make it even more impossible to solve what 4 and 5 are.

I don't really see what fears one can have of the opponent seeing your tags if the meaning of the tags and ambigious enough. This is on top of how impossible it is to perfectly or semi-perfectly replicate any tactic using their end result alone

WASP103
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#7 » 01 Mar 2018, 08:55

mcompany wrote:(...)


Ah, so you meant obfocusation, not encryption then. :D I was scared for a bit there.

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GFX47
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Posts: 2826

Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#8 » 01 Mar 2018, 09:04

mumpsimus wrote:If you select an enemy bot you see its tags and team tags.


OK that was not intended, I'll fix it.

WASP103
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#9 » 01 Mar 2018, 09:16

GFX47 wrote:OK that was not intended, I'll fix it.


Phew, bullet dodged :D

pier4r
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Posts: 3315

Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#10 » 01 Mar 2018, 11:29

Miojo wrote:One of the coolest things with the new tags is that we now have a huge pool of new strats to implement.
Probably the player that will rise above the others will be the one with the best and most creative tags.

Letting players see what tags you are using and when you are using just promotes cheap copying.
I can only see downsides to it. Players should look to the enemy BEHAVIOR and try to counter or implement things on their own way. They shouldn't be able to look at exactly what ticks he is using what tags and just copy the system.


Now let's be honest. How much time do you have to watch a replay trying to reverse engineer the tags of every single bot? It is a lot of work.

Also the point on the tags could be applied on all the other actions (down to the lines, questioned by castlevania months ago), but once again let's be serious. "why is this bot pushing now and not before?". Surely knowing the action of a bot helps figuring out what the bot is doing better than having no clue, but to reverse engineer it perfectly, it is not that easy.

It is like sollniss seeing the entire enemy AIs, they are so big that he doesn't even bother to decode them, and he has the source code right there.
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Miojo
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#11 » 01 Mar 2018, 16:49

pier4r wrote:
Miojo wrote:One of the coolest things with the new tags is that we now have a huge pool of new strats to implement.
Probably the player that will rise above the others will be the one with the best and most creative tags.

Letting players see what tags you are using and when you are using just promotes cheap copying.
I can only see downsides to it. Players should look to the enemy BEHAVIOR and try to counter or implement things on their own way. They shouldn't be able to look at exactly what ticks he is using what tags and just copy the system.


Now let's be honest. How much time do you have to watch a replay trying to reverse engineer the tags of every single bot? It is a lot of work.

Also the point on the tags could be applied on all the other actions (down to the lines, questioned by castlevania months ago), but once again let's be serious. "why is this bot pushing now and not before?". Surely knowing the action of a bot helps figuring out what the bot is doing better than having no clue, but to reverse engineer it perfectly, it is not that easy.

It is like sollniss seeing the entire enemy AIs, they are so big that he doesn't even bother to decode them, and he has the source code right there.

Tags don't need to be complex to be effective and innovative. They can be pretty "obvious" when you look at the enemy and see exactly what is going on.

mcompany
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Posts: 865

Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#12 » 01 Mar 2018, 18:55

Miojo wrote:Tags don't need to be complex to be effective and innovative. They can be pretty "obvious" when you look at the enemy and see exactly what is going on.

Here we go with this nonsense again. However, I will give you credit where credit is due: whether we can see the enemy tags does not help or hurt the debugging process of our own AIs. However, nonetheless, your premise is flawed, and until someone is able to successfully solve my order per range that I use for my tagged 2 bots (an 8 node system per range), I will deem most of the arguments here to not be based in any actual examples of abuse of seeing the enemy tags, but instead on an irrational fear of impossible to solve knowledge that does not prove your statements in the slightest. Not only that, certain tags may never bee seen if they are untagged within the same tick, and any player can probably infer the use of tags if they are going to waste the time trying to understand your AIs

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TomCat
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#13 » 02 Mar 2018, 07:28

Like GFX47 sad, that was not intended. Because that is not useful for anyone to see enemies tags. I meen not usefull for own AI behavior. Because own AI can't react to enemies tags.
But there is something that could be really useful - at least for me. If I could see which bot is in which range. I imagine if I select bot (and it doesn't matter if my or enemy's) it could color all bots in short range to one color, all bots in medium range to other color and so on. Because often when I pause the game and some bot is on the border, I can't recognize if it is already in short range or not. Thanks to viewing angle it is not easy to say sometimes.
My God, it's full of stars!

mcompany
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Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#14 » 02 Mar 2018, 07:36

TomCat wrote:Like GFX47 sad, that was not intended. Because that is not useful for anyone to see enemies tags. I meen not usefull for own AI behavior. Because own AI can't react to enemies tags.
But there is something that could be really useful - at least for me. If I could see which bot is in which range. I imagine if I select bot (and it doesn't matter if my or enemy's) it could color all bots in short range to one color, all bots in medium range to other color and so on. Because often when I pause the game and some bot is on the border, I can't recognize if it is already in short range or not. Thanks to viewing angle it is not easy to say sometimes.

So, yes, if it is removed due to not being intended, and it is removed due to not having any redeeming qualities (like the lines), then I do think it is valid if gfx removes it. But what I'm specifically stating that the reasoning of stating that hidden information will be seen is BS, has been proven false before, and should not factor into its removal

Also, being able to click on the enemy bots themselves is not a bug, just that seeing the enemy's tags was just a side effect

pier4r
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Posts: 3315

Re: Hide enemy player tags on matches.

Post#15 » 02 Mar 2018, 10:50

TomCat wrote:Like GFX47 sad, that was not intended. Because that is not useful for anyone to see enemies tags. I meen not usefull for own AI behavior. Because own AI can't react to enemies tags.
But there is something that could be really useful - at least for me. If I could see which bot is in which range. I imagine if I select bot (and it doesn't matter if my or enemy's) it could color all bots in short range to one color, all bots in medium range to other color and so on. Because often when I pause the game and some bot is on the border, I can't recognize if it is already in short range or not. Thanks to viewing angle it is not easy to say sometimes.


Use a debug subtree. https://youtu.be/-Rkk4xwe8Ng

Also after speaking in telegram I can say that the most info come from redlines and tags are really not needed. Already knowing which action the enemy not does is a lot of information (although without seeing conditions it is still partial), let's digested that first.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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