Reset elo score

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Ritter Runkel
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Reset elo score

Post#1 » 19 Jan 2018, 00:20

I suggest to reset the Elo score from time to time, maybe whenever there is a new release.

I request that because the current top2 almost never play ranked and so it's not possible to get to place one or two at the moment and that's kind of frustrating.

sollniss
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#2 » 19 Jan 2018, 00:34

Just add decay.

You lose 33 elo every day after 7 days of inactivity or something. So after 10 days you get -100.

Chilio
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#3 » 19 Jan 2018, 18:16

In that case, unranked games should count as inactive, because that's the loophole they found iirc ^^

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Ritter Runkel
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#4 » 19 Jan 2018, 18:48

Chilio wrote:In that case, unranked games should count as inactive, because that's the loophole they found iirc ^^


+1

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#5 » 20 Jan 2018, 16:49

Ritter Runkel wrote:I suggest to reset the Elo score from time to time, maybe whenever there is a new release.

I request that because the current top2 almost never play ranked and so it's not possible to get to place one or two at the moment and that's kind of frustrating.


it is too drastic, as it is the decay request (requested by PSP long ago, it messes up with the elo in the system). We had this problem since the time of nullpointer playing one game every week.

It is pretty simple, raise the bar to be inactive.

a) don't count unranked games for activity (or count them differently, like with another color)
b) raise the number of games to be played recently to be counted active. I would say 10 __ranked__ games per week (with more players I would say 10 per day). Like this: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=493&start=100#p14734

In this way you may end up with very few players, but at least they are active.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#6 » 20 Jan 2018, 21:49

How does decay mess up the elo?

Once you go active again and play 10 games you are back at your old elo.

Or make it like most modern games and have a hidden matchmaking elo and a visible league score. When a player goes inactive you keep the elo but reduce the league score slowly. When the player comes back you adjust the league score based on the elo. There are enough algorithms out there for this.

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#7 » 20 Jan 2018, 22:20

sollniss wrote:How does decay mess up the elo?



It is obvious, just plug some numbers with the values you give. Also please, make some examples and describe them for everyone. For example with 40 days of inactivity and some other values.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#8 » 20 Jan 2018, 22:58

Grandmaster: -50 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Master: -25 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Gold: -10 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Silver or lower: no dacay

Adjust the numbers however you want, I'm not a mathematician.

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#9 » 21 Jan 2018, 12:07

sollniss wrote:Grandmaster: -50 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Master: -25 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Gold: -10 per day after 1 week of inactivity
Silver or lower: no dacay

Adjust the numbers however you want, I'm not a mathematician.


Aside from your model, that can be discussed over and over as exercise, the point of "punishing" people that go inactive do not prevent them to be inactive.

The point here is to avoid keeping people hanging to the top with very low activity (or zero unranked games), the all time statistics will always contain people with certain scores that may or may not be difficult to reach. I see this fixed easily: when was your 3rd last (or 10th last or Xth last) ranked game. More than one week ago? Inactive, away from the leaderboard.

Or, since for me unranked games are also a sort of activity that is better not to throw away, at least change colors. For example green: if one has enough ranked games; yellow if one is playing only unranked.

In this way would be obvious that some players are playing only unranked.

Even better, but it requires some work, is the old request of mcompany. An entirely different leaderboard for unranked games, that would make them even interesting.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#10 » 21 Jan 2018, 15:43

There are enough games that have different ladders and inactivity implemented already. In general all of these games take each ladder separated.

You can play every day, but if you don't play ladder x at least every y days, you will be marked as inactive and lose rating. That's just the normal way to do it.

I don't know if it happens in sports, but nobody can tell me that a 2200 elo chess grandmaster is still 2200 elo after a 2 year break.

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#11 » 21 Jan 2018, 16:48

yes but that is a petty point.

I mean you can also cannot tell if the chess grandmaster is 2100 after two years or whatever arbitrary penalty that you assign. He may be 1900, or 3875 for all we know. Only playing will tell.

Simply because the elo strength is not absolute but relative to the active playerbase. I thought you got this point already but it doesn't seem so.

Indeed in chess one can start playing again but there is no penalty. Only the last score is registered and that's it. If one is not anymore good the new games will show it letting him losing points pretty quickly, if not, he gets removed and that's it.

Collecting best scores is just fun but nothing else, already scores made with different k factor values (so from a league to another) are incomparable.

So the point is to take those inactive (for the ranked games) players away from the screen, not being petty willing that the scores have to be penalized arbitrarily.

Also it should be obvious that since the amount of players that go inactive are way more that the amounts of players that stay active, with negative penalties the system regress more and more. It is nothing difficult to see, a bit of observation, common sense, a bit of time to plug numbers if one does not want to make a program and math concepts of middle school at best (sure, one has to consider the actual context as well, like elo formula and matchmaking, but that is granted).

Now since experience says that it is likely that you will clinch on your point, feel free to do it, but I explained even too much for someone that should have already noted it.

For me it is obvious that penalties are counterproductive and here something simpler is needed, for your is not, that's it.

Also would be interesting that you provide sources (no "google it" is no source. Nice try) for your claim, even just to see another perspective. Could you link 2-3 (only one is too little) official pages where the staff of the online game explains the penalty points if one goes inactive? Of course should be an active rule, not something that was changed due to the community complaining.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

sollniss
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#12 » 21 Jan 2018, 17:46

Overwatch:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwat ... 789?page=1

League of Legends:
https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/ ... y-FAQ#h3q1

CS:Go:
http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-ranks-explained/ (ctrl+f "decay" to get to the decay part)

Three of the most popular games right now. They all have decay.
Note that these games put massive money into these things and hire statisticians etc. to get it right.

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#13 » 21 Jan 2018, 21:33

thanks for the links, and yes those 3 are massive games so even if they try with trials and error should be evolved enough to be good. Then one should understand what they do and their context (matchmaking/score rules) to then translate it in gladiabots. Porting the idea without adaptation may be not that pleasant.

I still believe that it is simpler to make players inactive properly, but now the other option has a bit more meat to bite.

I really have to be less lazy and (a) fix the unavoidable tournaments and (b) make a elo simulator where we can play (small) hypotheses.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

pier4r
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Re: Reset elo score

Post#14 » 14 Feb 2018, 18:05

Regarding "massive games" that should have people that know their field (Statistics and math) it is also true that massive worldwide games, like english football, sometimes produce not that special official rankings at best.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coef ... oefficient

or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Rankings

This not to dimish potential useful examples from other games, but to diminish the importance of "if <game popular> then <solution is better> "
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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