Buff Assault Class

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#21 » 16 Oct 2017, 09:15

mcompany wrote:*Ahem*, please divide your values by 100. this is damage per second, not damage per 100 seconds


Oh sorry, it was DPLS actually.

pier4r
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#22 » 16 Oct 2017, 11:39

I said already long ago that every class should have its "sweet" damage spot.

Sniper is long range, but it is slow.
Machine gun is near, as a machine gun should be.
Sniper is very close.

Assault, as in real military assault rifles, are no better than MG/SG nearby but are better at long range.

So I am for a 15% (20% is a bit stretched) accuracy long range.
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#23 » 16 Oct 2017, 16:31

pier4r wrote:I said already long ago that every class should have its "sweet" damage spot.

Sniper is long range, but it is slow.
Machine gun is near, as a machine gun should be.
Sniper is very close.

Assault, as in real military assault rifles, are no better than MG/SG nearby but are better at long range.

So I am for a 15% (20% is a bit stretched) accuracy long range.

I'm with you on 15%, but i think we should at least TRY 20%, and then tune things from there. We are in Alpha after all. :)

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#24 » 16 Oct 2017, 18:56

i am scared that these modification are too powerfull with the actual gameplay.

I think the modification will have to come when the 4v4 random map with 4 differents class will appeared (we can already think about it but actually as we have map with a lot of assault i dont think that a big buff will be good...)


If you really want a modification of assault with the current gameplay i think a light improvement will be better.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#25 » 16 Oct 2017, 19:12

By the way, 16.758840288252% is equal in damage to machine gun's 10%
TheKidPunisher wrote:i am scared that these modification are too powerfull with the actual gameplay.

I think the modification will have to come when the 4v4 random map with 4 differents class will appeared (we can already think about it but actually as we have map with a lot of assault i dont think that a big buff will be good...)


If you really want a modification of assault with the current gameplay i think a light improvement will be better.

On one hand, I do think you have a point that buffing assaults too much when there are multiple assaults and not multiples of other bots might be too much, at the same time, it might open new options for bot combinations, so I'd say, why not try it

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#26 » 16 Oct 2017, 19:18

Surely it will mean a lot of AI changes.
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#27 » 18 Oct 2017, 12:38

I don't see any point to changing the power of the assault. If you make it much more powerful then I would seriously consider stopping using the MachineGun altogether (i am already doing tests on this). This game is all about pushing, which the assault does very well, much better than the MG. The MG is hard to control.
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#28 » 18 Oct 2017, 13:06

The assault is actually a pretty good unit.

It can fire quickly to hurt fleeing that have recently had their shield damaged, unlike the MG.

It's the fastest except for the SG.
The assault is very effective in groups of assaults.

When I hurt an opponents sniper's shield, it's the assaults in the area that I depend on to quickly push it back and hurt it. The reload time of the MG is too long to do this and the SG is best used for pushing.

It has a useful role.

Increasing the power of the assault will have these changes:

1. Shooting from long range will become a better option and be done more. This will reduce the incentive to push to medium range. Pushing to medium range is **hard** to do, so this will benefit the players who can't figure out how to do it.

2. The SG and MG units will become significantly less useful as they will be easily pushed back by long range assaults. You could solve this by making the SG stronger at medium range or making the MG faster, but then we're back to where we started...
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#29 » 18 Oct 2017, 14:11

Interesting point of view chris.

I still think that we need to complexify the game, to keep top players interested in the game. But indeed, only changing range effectivness doesn't do that and may have a bad impact.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#30 » 18 Oct 2017, 14:30

MrChris wrote:The assault is very effective in groups of assaults..

As there will never be groups of assaults in future versions maybe a buff isnt a bad idea.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#31 » 18 Oct 2017, 15:03

TheKidPunisher wrote:As there will never be groups of assaults in future versions maybe a buff isnt a bad idea.


What?
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#32 » 18 Oct 2017, 15:07

Here are the current problems:
1. The shotgun and assault are virtually identical(the shotgun being the overall better version)
2. The assault is the weakest class in the game and is not balanced with the other classes.

If anyone can come up with a BETTER solution that would fix these 2 things I would be happy to hear it. Otherwise, I think we should try the changes and see where it takes us. :)

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#33 » 18 Oct 2017, 15:44

MrChris wrote:
TheKidPunisher wrote:As there will never be groups of assaults in future versions maybe a buff isnt a bad idea.


What?


Read this and you will understand:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1005

Revenge wrote:Here are the current problems:
1. The shotgun and assault are virtually identical(the shotgun being the overall better version)
2. The assault is the weakest class in the game and is not balanced with the other classes.

If anyone can come up with a BETTER solution that would fix these 2 things I would be happy to hear it. Otherwise, I think we should try the changes and see where it takes us. :)


I got some ideas but as the game will change in future versions, i think it is not necessary to do balance between class before we go in 4 differents class vs 4 differents class on random maps configuration.

If you really want it, i can put a proposition (this night, all my notes are at my home)

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#34 » 18 Oct 2017, 16:09

TheKidPunisher wrote:If you really want it, i can put a proposition (this night, all my notes are at my home)

Sure! I'd like to see your ideas.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#35 » 18 Oct 2017, 16:27

1. The shotgun and assault are virtually identical(the shotgun being the overall better version)


Incorrect. The SG is significantly faster than the assault which allows it to be used in a completely different way.

The assault is the weakest class in the game and is not balanced with the other classes.


The other classes are specialised units that you can only have one of. Currently, there can be many assaults on the map so there's nothing wrong with them being slightly weaker than the specialised units. I think the balance is right. Changing the unit stats like has been suggested will add nothing to the game.
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#36 » 18 Oct 2017, 18:59

MrChris wrote:
1. The shotgun and assault are virtually identical(the shotgun being the overall better version)


Incorrect. The SG is significantly faster than the assault which allows it to be used in a completely different way.

Just because it can be used differently, doesn't mean it specifically has a different role, but rather that it can be used proficiently in two different roles. To put it simply, anything assault can do, shotgun can do at least just as well, if not better. The only exception is attacking alone at long range

MrChris wrote:The assault is very effective in groups of assaults.

I'm not on my laptop, so I can't fully address this, but I don't think this statement applies very much towards the idea of rebalancing. To make this statement meaningful, it must be 2 things
1: Something unique to that bot class or group of bot classes. Now machine gun and sniper's long reload time makes it harder to work in groups (although I can maybe see potential for multiple snipers to work together like during 5.2), but considering that shotgun also has a very quick cycle time and shotgun is already confirmed to be better than assault in any other relevant area, shotgun does actually fit for doing well in groups just as well as assault does. So I guess fitting 2 bots in the selection of 4 bots counts as unique
2: Something that comes up in game. However, assault's usefulness in groups have only come up on defense; on offense, nine times out of ten, it really is just that assault isn't so much weaker and doesn't have armor so much thinner that losing one would be so much better than losing a machine gun or a shotgun. Not to mention that the statement really doesn't come up on Kingmaker (sniper-assault-shotgun is worse than sniper-machine gun-shotgun), Seven Wonders (not putting a machine gun is hard to do right), Flanking (similar to Seven Wonders in a way), or Split Team (it can come up only if you regroup your bots, but alone, 2 assaults won't beat sniper-assault/shotgun or machine gun-assault/shotgun), and gfx's random maps setup will force you to use all 4 bot types anyways.


Assault is objectively worse than shotgun, and definitely seems to be worse at doing its job that machine gun or sniper is at doing theirs. At the few least it needs some sort of buff to stay viable, especially for when random maps will be implemented

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#37 » 19 Oct 2017, 02:04

Revenge wrote:
TheKidPunisher wrote:If you really want it, i can put a proposition (this night, all my notes are at my home)

Sure! I'd like to see your ideas.


Actually i think assault no needs a big buff, maybe a more help at long range but even my proposition looks limit too powerful.

Modification:
Aiming time 1s to 1.1s
Number of shot: 3 to 5
Number of bullet per shot: 2 (no modif)
Time between shots: 0.1s (no modif)
Total time of all shots: 0.2s to 0.4s
damage per bullet: 300 to 240

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      1440,00    800,00   160,00
Shotgun      2250,00    750,00   150,00
MachineGun   2015,11   1259,45   251,89
Sniper        666,67    666,67   666,67


A little more damage and more constant... as i say it is maybe to much powerful as on some maps we have a lot of assault.
So i think we should wait the 4v4 different class and rando map and see what need to have to be more balanced.

mcompany
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#38 » 19 Oct 2017, 02:55

TheKidPunisher wrote:Modification:
Aiming time 1s to 1.1s
Number of shot: 3 to 5
Number of bullet per shot: 2 (no modif)
Time between shots: 0.1s (no modif)
Total time of all shots: 0.2s to 0.4s
damage per bullet: 300 to 240

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      1440,00    800,00   160,00
Shotgun      2250,00    750,00   150,00
MachineGun   2015,11   1259,45   251,89
Sniper        666,67    666,67   666,67


A little more damage and more constant... as i say it is maybe to much powerful as on some maps we have a lot of assault.
So i think we should wait the 4v4 different class and rando map and see what need to have to be more balanced.

Umm... idk. This is overall a nerf (88.88% what it currently does), and assault is already weak at short range (100% current assault is 59.55% machine gun and 50% shotgun), so nerfing it seems like a bit drastic way to make the other accuracy values make sense. If anything, we could just decide to not buff its medium range accuracy and instead just give it more shield

pier4r
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#39 » 19 Oct 2017, 08:58

Chris has some good point.

One cannot adjust assault because there will be 4vs4 matches . Let them come first.

Otherwise it is like going naked around the city saying ' eventually I will take a shower , so I need to be naked' . It is silly.

When there will be in general less bots on a map, then yes, maybe it will be needed to buff the assault a bit.
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TheKidPunisher
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#40 » 19 Oct 2017, 11:44

pier4r wrote:Chris has some good point.

One cannot adjust assault because there will be 4vs4 matches . Let them come first.

Otherwise it is like going naked around the city saying ' eventually I will take a shower , so I need to be naked' . It is silly.

When there will be in general less bots on a map, then yes, maybe it will be needed to buff the assault a bit.


It is not like i repeat that all long this thread...

@mcompany: so, you modify damage (at SR/MR/LR) from 1350/750/150 to 1440/800/160 and it is a nerf? I need more explication or i dont get it...

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