Buff Assault Class

mcompany
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#61 » 21 Oct 2017, 20:41

pier4r wrote:
mcompany wrote: that shotgun is basically the same bot as assault, just better

Wouldn't be better mean: always better?

From your checks does not seem so.

It would mean either the same in any category or better. The bullet timings might be able to argue with this statements, except that shotgun does get to certain values first a number of times and it is overall unreliable to say that they are any less than equal. Speed is better for shotgun though, and the armor is better. And as I just argued, the long range weakness of shotgun is extremely minor, if it truly had a real effect at all

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#62 » 22 Nov 2017, 03:52

This is my first post on this forum and I made the account after seeing this thread.

I'm just getting back into gladiators, I last played it when there were none of these new classes ages ago. I just wanted to offer my 2 cents on this.
Assault is my favourite class and I do not think they need to be buffed. I'm getting back into the swing of things but with using only assaults and no other classes one can easily get into the gold league if they have a decent AI. The ability to swiftly change targets is a huge blessing and I like them as they are incredibly adaptable. Of course so far as I have been using teams composed entirely of assualt bots with the occasional shotgun I likely don't see their failings as much when watching them operate more individually within diverse teams.

The most valuable and unique aspect of the assualt class is their low aim time. Nothing else can have swift suppressive fire along with actually effective long range focus fire.

I do not believe they need to be buffed.
If however the wider wiser community disagrees however I do not think any buff should focus on speed or DPS. This would make them less unique imo. Instead if possible a buff should amplify the best trait of assault which is probably focus firing in groups which could be enhanced by quicker aim times. I also see assault as very much as having a supporting role for other units.

If I was to throw out more inventive ideas for assault it would be a novel firing mechanic, for example one that does not do damage but one of these options;
A. slows the attacked enemy down for X number of seconds.
B. Forces the enemy to drop the resource and/or makes it unable to pick up a resource for X number of seconds.
C. Shield repair function by shooting allies.
Alternatively;
D. Suicide bombing ability.
E. Permanent immobilisation in exchange for full shield replinishmemt.

I think they should.not be buffed however and if they must it should be anything other than speed and DPS and likely should be aim speed if possible. Sorry for any typos I'm on my phone.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#63 » 22 Nov 2017, 04:32

Borogrove wrote:This is my first post on this forum and I made the account after seeing this thread.

I'm just getting back into gladiators, I last played it when there were none of these new classes ages ago. I just wanted to offer my 2 cents on this.
Assault is my favourite class and I do not think they need to be buffed. I'm getting back into the swing of things but with using only assaults and no other classes one can easily get into the gold league if they have a decent AI. The ability to swiftly change targets is a huge blessing and I like them as they are incredibly adaptable. Of course so far as I have been using teams composed entirely of assualt bots with the occasional shotgun I likely don't see their failings as much when watching them operate more individually within diverse teams.

The most valuable and unique aspect of the assualt class is their low aim time. Nothing else can have swift suppressive fire along with actually effective long range focus fire.

I do not believe they need to be buffed.
If however the wider wiser community disagrees however I do not think any buff should focus on speed or DPS. This would make them less unique imo. Instead if possible a buff should amplify the best trait of assault which is probably focus firing in groups which could be enhanced by quicker aim times. I also see assault as very much as having a supporting role for other units.

If I was to throw out more inventive ideas for assault it would be a novel firing mechanic, for example one that does not do damage but one of these options;
A. slows the attacked enemy down for X number of seconds.
B. Forces the enemy to drop the resource and/or makes it unable to pick up a resource for X number of seconds.
C. Shield repair function by shooting allies.
Alternatively;
D. Suicide bombing ability.
E. Permanent immobilisation in exchange for full shield replinishmemt.

I think they should.not be buffed however and if they must it should be anything other than speed and DPS and likely should be aim speed if possible. Sorry for any typos I'm on my phone.


1. Slows would break the game. If anything speed related is added it should make bots faster, not more sluggish.

2. That would just kill off resource strategy completely. There's already a topic about how resource strategies play too much like elimination. No point making it worse.

3. Interesting, but would require even more coding, especially for firing. Would make more sense to drop a "healing pod" that does healing aoe to all bots within medium range. (easier to program) I think GFX already has a healer bot planned though, and it's not assault. ;)

4. Not really a needed buff, but would certainly make things interesting. Might annoy shotguns, but if its like 10% of full hp damage, that wouldn't be that bad.(for all bots)

5. Would be a cool idea for a new bot class. The goal isn't to change assault completely, but to appeal to the strengths it already has.


Welcome to the forums. I hope you stick with the game through to full release. I'll see you on the battlefield. ;D

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#64 » 22 Nov 2017, 06:03

Revenge wrote:
1. Slows would break the game. If anything speed related is added it should make bots faster, not more sluggish.

2. That would just kill off resource strategy completely. There's already a topic about how resource strategies play too much like elimination. No point making it worse.

3. Interesting, but would require even more coding, especially for firing. Would make more sense to drop a "healing pod" that does healing aoe to all bots within medium range. (easier to program) I think GFX already has a healer bot planned though, and it's not assault. ;)

4. Not really a needed buff, but would certainly make things interesting. Might annoy shotguns, but if its like 10% of full hp damage, that wouldn't be that bad.(for all bots)

5. Would be a cool idea for a new bot class. The goal isn't to change assault completely, but to appeal to the strengths it already has.


Welcome to the forums. I hope you stick with the game through to full release. I'll see you on the battlefield. ;D


Thanks, these ideas were merely thrown out as alternatives to the dps or speed prospect. Aiming would be my go to. I do think it's better to leave it as it is. Coming back to the game I was a bit skeptical about the new bot classes. I wouldnt mind an assualt only mode :).

On point 4;
If the bot had to collide to detonate and affects all enemies in a short range it would not be too hard for the shotgun to counter. It could flee all assualt moving towards it at low health and close range easily dodging. It could also have the potential to finish off the assault before the collision was made. Would be a bit of a counter to the shotty though still...

On point 3 I did not think it would be terribly hard to code. Just have the assault attack allies like it would attack enemies but instead of does reverse damage on the shield. Makes it very important to group up the assualt bots.

On point 2. Yeah, rapid gatherers do not seem too prominent but if this ability was only possible at mid range it still might not be so bad. Maybe simultaneously buff assault resource gathering speed or allow assaults to fire whilst gathering and it evens out a little?

Another silly idea would be to make it possible for the assualt class only to have the ability to destroy the enemy base once reaching it...
Would add another interesting element or potentially a new game mode and though weak it could make having multiple assaults fairly essential... I'm not too much of fan of this idea either though as I like the current maps the way they are and this could really screw some up.

I think too much complex nuance would cause a slight barrier to entry for new players to stick with the game, particularly as the test arena is only open for people who donate too...

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#65 » 22 Nov 2017, 15:54

When I said "would require even more coding", I was referring to the additional part on the user to manage coding healing as well as damage. It would double if not triple ai sizes. (which are already in the hundreds of nodes).

"I think too much complex nuance would cause a slight barrier to entry for new players to stick with the game".

Yeah, the buff shouldn't increase the complexity by much. I've thought about increasing lock on timing, but it would have to be a universal buff between bots. And some speed values might need to be changed to compensate. If you only buffed assault lock on timing, it would make it more difficult to tweak it's values in the future.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#66 » 22 Nov 2017, 15:59

I'm a videogame designer and programmer. So this type of stuff is my jelly. :)

Currently, I'm working on a bullet hell game. It's pretty fun, but I'm not sure get when it will get released. ^ฯ^

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#67 » 23 Nov 2017, 21:24

First off, no offense, but I feel like I must point something out
Borogrove wrote: I'm getting back into the swing of things but with using only assaults and no other classes one can easily get into the gold league if they have a decent AI.

The starting leagues has always been easy. Many of the players in silver league are beat by AIs that only has 4 nodes: attack, move to closest enemy, score, and grab resources. I doubt even gold league really starts to explore the real possibilities of what is possible. However, I will say this: I've tried it, tkp tried it, and several others has probably tried it, but I don't think anyone has gotten into grand master league with assaults only, and surely no one has stayed in grand master league with assaults only

Now, I don't quite have time to really go into details about your proposals, but I will once again reiterate what I'be been arguing for the rest of this thread:

If we only play the game without looking at stats, then we still get assault looking pretty weak. During 5.2 before I was even known or anything, I still specifically avoided and did well with replacing all assaults with shotguns in league 2 (only assault and shotgun), and I could not simply replace shotguns with machine guns in league 3 (assault, shotgun, and machine gun). And whenever you think of what the top strategies was during 5.2, it is always talked about as a rock paper scissors between sniper, shotgun and machine gun. In fact, assault was so disadvantaged that there was already talk of either removing assault or machine gun, and me briefly mentioning buffing assault. And while it was virtually guaranteed for people to not to do assault only from 5.3 to 6.1.3, 7.x marks the beginning of a new argument: with unlocking being based on your XP level, not having a sniper basically meant failure. It didn't matter that a well placed shotgun destroys snipers, not having a sniper alone meant that you couldn't control long range like your opponent could. And since, assault only has basically been its own category, its own challenge even, that regardless of how much work thekidpunisher put in and regardless of of many times he beat us, he could not reach the other top players. So, without knowing what statics are real with the assault, the assault seems underpowered compared everything else, with the only bright side being "good in teams", an argument that can't on its on two feet with a 5.2 style of deployment compared to sniper's stopping power, shotgun's nearly safe dances and rushes, and machine gun's sheer amount of armor and damage.

But we do have access to the stats. And for all bots except machine gun, it hasn't really changed since 5.2

Everyone talks about how good assault is at switching targets. But both assault and shotgun has an aiming time as 1000 ms. Everyone talks about how effective they are at long range, but machine does nearly double the damage, and shotgun's long range damage is by no means bad. As I've explained, shotgun does the same amount of damage with no legitimate disadvantage at long range except that shotgun lands bullets longer than 3000 ms apart from each other (not that it matters, shotgun's speed makes up for that disadvantage pretty quickly). Assault is the fastest bot... unless you consider the shotgun. And assault's resource collection speed is normal... unless you consider teleportation glitch abuse from shotgun. Shotgun and assault has the same amount of total armor... except that since shield is better than health shotgun already has better armor.

To put it simply: 99% of the time, even if you are blind enough to believe that assault is a good bot, shotgun is objectively better than assault in every way. Even if assault isn't a problem, there needs to something to differentiate assaults and shotguns. And considering that assault has historically been considered weak and shotgun hasn't, it might be a better idea to buff assault if we want to make a system where all bots are legitimately useful

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#68 » 24 Nov 2017, 00:15

Shotgun doing "not bad" damages at long range is a problem from a design perspective, I guess I'll have to nerf it slightly.
Maybe Assault should be a little bit more effective at long range to fit the "not too bad, not too good at everything" idea.
Also I'll try to find a quick fix on the teleport exploit.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#69 » 24 Nov 2017, 02:57

mcompany wrote:To put it simply: 99% of the time, even if you are blind enough to believe that assault is a good bot, shotgun is objectively better than assault in every way. Even if assault isn't a problem, there needs to something to differentiate assaults and shotguns. And considering that assault has historically been considered weak and shotgun hasn't, it might be a better idea to buff assault if we want to make a system where all bots are legitimately useful


I agree that the shotgun is objectively better than the assault class. Sorry if it seemed like I was purporting something different.

On the point of leagues the fact that one can get to platinum using only assault but one can't easily get to any higher league with no other class I had thought was an indication of balance.

Essentially my position was more in line with this quote;
MrChris wrote:The other classes are specialised units that you can only have one of. Currently, there can be many assaults on the map so there's nothing wrong with them being slightly weaker than the specialised units. I think the balance is right. Changing the unit stats like has been suggested will add nothing to the game.


On aiming I am aware that it has the same aim time as the shotgun. Regardless this fast aim time for long range engagement is the biggest draw I find for assault and given the shield to health ratio probably decent play too. Also why I thought an aim time buff would be the most advantageous and in line with the class.
I agree that it can be accepted that assault is the weakest but I am of the view that a buff to it could likely cause one of the other classes to be slightly less unique. Sorry to be coming back into this game after only previously seeing it completely barebones blindly voicing my views on classes but I find this an interesting convo.
What would you consider the best use/ aspect of the assault class?
Personally I had thought it to be the aim time despite it being that same as the shotguns.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#70 » 24 Nov 2017, 12:10

Alpha 11 balancing tweaks:

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#71 » 24 Nov 2017, 12:22

That will be different.. Assaults much more useful, as second best at long range and faster than sniper.. But that would definitely mean rewriting the Shotgun AIs.. For Assaults it wouldn't really make a rewrite necessary..

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#72 » 24 Nov 2017, 12:59

Athelinde wrote:That will be different.. Assaults much more useful, as second best at long range and faster than sniper.. But that would definitely mean rewriting the Shotgun AIs.. For Assaults it wouldn't really make a rewrite necessary..


Surely it would? It would be better to keep them at long range as much as possible. A sniper is now a bit weak now too in comparison as it would likely be less safe at long range. Machine gun AIs would be more heavily impacted than the shotguns as all the commands to keep firing on a fleeing enemy in order to avoid changing aim will have to be canned.

I'd be interested to see how this plays out... Good for my general strats I suppose though. I don't really use the shotty long range and I try avoid the sniper.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#73 » 24 Nov 2017, 13:56

After some more tests, I made more tweaks, see the updated post.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#74 » 24 Nov 2017, 14:11

GFX47 wrote:Alpha 11 balancing tweaks:

Image

Mh I can't see it. :?
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#75 » 24 Nov 2017, 14:18

Better?

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#76 » 24 Nov 2017, 14:29

Hahaha when will this update come in to effect?

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#77 » 24 Nov 2017, 14:29

First release candidate hopefully coming today.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#78 » 24 Nov 2017, 16:16

GFX47 wrote:First release candidate hopefully coming today.


:D

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#79 » 24 Nov 2017, 17:10

What I meant is that shotgun needs a serious rewrite now there is no long range. With this rebalancing I need to see if I find the machinegun still as useful. And yes the sniper will be less safe and harder to make useful as well.

My first impression is that the shotgun and assaults will be most useful, at least how I like to play it.. Sniper and Machinegun are relatively too slow to keep up with the others.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#80 » 24 Nov 2017, 17:59

Borogrove wrote:
mcompany wrote:To put it simply: 99% of the time, even if you are blind enough to believe that assault is a good bot, shotgun is objectively better than assault in every way. Even if assault isn't a problem, there needs to something to differentiate assaults and shotguns. And considering that assault has historically been considered weak and shotgun hasn't, it might be a better idea to buff assault if we want to make a system where all bots are legitimately useful


I agree that the shotgun is objectively better than the assault class. Sorry if it seemed like I was purporting something different.

On the point of leagues the fact that one can get to platinum using only assault but one can't easily get to any higher league with no other class I had thought was an indication of balance.

Essentially my position was more in line with this quote;
MrChris wrote:The other classes are specialised units that you can only have one of. Currently, there can be many assaults on the map so there's nothing wrong with them being slightly weaker than the specialised units. I think the balance is right. Changing the unit stats like has been suggested will add nothing to the game.


On aiming I am aware that it has the same aim time as the shotgun. Regardless this fast aim time for long range engagement is the biggest draw I find for assault and given the shield to health ratio probably decent play too. Also why I thought an aim time buff would be the most advantageous and in line with the class.
I agree that it can be accepted that assault is the weakest but I am of the view that a buff to it could likely cause one of the other classes to be slightly less unique. Sorry to be coming back into this game after only previously seeing it completely barebones blindly voicing my views on classes but I find this an interesting convo.
What would you consider the best use/ aspect of the assault class?
Personally I had thought it to be the aim time despite it being that same as the shotguns.

I agree with Chris that assault's advantage being in it being more numerous, but I don't believe that is a meaningful statement in the current game. Deployment is not based on system of value, meaning that unless the maps has a lot of bots (something that would be especially false if there was only 4 vs 4 random maps), there is no reason to have more assaults since the other classes are stronger and more useful. Consider the fact that in grand master league, on Circle of Death having a sniper went from being an awful idea to being virtually necessary to the point where CoD used to be map specific only until counting nodes. Even if we consider the maps currently in the game, Barred Spiral, Split Team, CoD, and Meeting Point are the only maps where being numerous matters, and on Split Team 2 assaults is worse than any other combination except maybe assault/shotgun (maybe). And that is only a small number of situations where having 2 assaults vs 2 of other bots (or maybe even 1 of other bots) doesn't give a real major advantage. Assault is just made of paper, too weak, and doesn't have the shotgun speed to get away with anything. If there was any good things about the current assault was really able to do is at least some damage without being as slow as machine gun... but then shotgun is still doing that job objectively better on the current 5.2 stats

GFX47 wrote:Alpha 11 balancing tweaks:

Nice, I this probably going to be pretty good... except that machine gun's nerfs seems really harsh. Definitely needs testing. Can't wait for the release candidate

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