Random map suggestions

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LuBeNo
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Random map suggestions

Post#1 » 16 Sep 2017, 11:10

Here some thoughts about how to implement random maps:

  • Decide the game mode: Elimination (50%), Best score (50%)
  • Decide the symmetry: reflectional vertical (10%), reflectional horizontal (10%), reflectional diagonal top left to bottom right (10%), reflectional diagonal top bottom left to top right (10%), rotational symmetry (40%), no symmetry at all (20% - unfair! - could be skipped if you don't like it)
  • Decide rule set #1 - Bots of different teams can be placed: only out of range of each other (34%), also within long range of each other (33%), also within mid range of each other (33%)
  • Decide rule set #2 - Bases can only be placed: within mid range of any bot of their team (80%), also out of range of bots of their team (20%)
  • Decide rule set #3 - All map objects need a distance of 3 meters to each other
  • Decide rule set #4?
  • If best score map decide count of resources 1 (5%), 3 (10%), 5 (35%), 7 (35%), 9 (10%), 11 (5%)
  • If best score map decide count of bases: 1 (75%), 2 (20%), 3 (5%)
  • If elimination map decide count of bases: 0 (70%), 1 (30%)
  • Decide count of bots: 3 (15%), 4 (30%), 5 (30%), 6 (15%), 7 (5%), 8 (5%)
  • Decide if bots are placed in one group (50%), two groups (25%) or separately (25%)
  • Decide if resources (beside the 1 resource that must be on the reflectional symmetry axe in the map mid in case of rotational symmetry) are placed in 1 group (50%), 2 groups (25%) or separately (25%)
  • If bots or resources are considered to be placed as groups decide the geometrical form: line (50%), circle (50%), randomize the length of the line, the circumference of the circle and the orientation
  • For each bot group select a random position [10..40][10..40] and place the bot group of the other team according to symmetry. If there are violations in any rule above. Reselect a random position until no rules are violated.
  • For each resource group select a random position [10..40][10..40] and place the resource group of the other team according to symmetry. If there are violations in any rule above. Reselect a random position until no rules are violated.
  • For each base select a random position [10..40][10..40] and place the base of the other team according to symmetry. If there are violations in any rule above. Reselect a random position until no rules are violated.

What are your ideas? More rules? Change percentages? Other things to consider?
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LuBeNo
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#2 » 16 Sep 2017, 11:43

If one would implement it. We could have a look at 10 randomly created maps and adjust rules.
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GFX47
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#3 » 16 Sep 2017, 12:41

I was thinking about reusing the recursive pattern system I implemented in Dungeon of the Endless.

[youtube]zPQOHX9hiL0[/youtube]
You can skip to 25:15.

pier4r
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#4 » 16 Sep 2017, 12:55

For the first post of lubeno. It is a long algorithm, but it is an idea.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

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LuBeNo
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#5 » 16 Sep 2017, 13:00

GFX47 wrote:I was thinking about reusing the recursive pattern system I implemented in Dungeon of the Endless.

I saw that video before, when you linked it somewhere. I tried to think similar with the groups approach. IMO Gladiabots currently has very few map objects (bots, resources and bases) if they will grow (powerups [health, better damage, faster speed], walls or obstacles, factories constructing bots, turrets shooting at the other team, repair stations, holes one can fall into, decoration, npcs, ...) it would make sense to use this recursive pattern otherwise I don't know if it would make sense.
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sollniss
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#6 » 16 Sep 2017, 20:52

LuBeNo wrote:I saw that video before, when you linked it somewhere. I tried to think similar with the groups approach. IMO Gladiabots currently has very few map objects (bots, resources and bases) if they will grow (powerups [health, better damage, faster speed], walls or obstacles, factories constructing bots, turrets shooting at the other team, repair stations, holes one can fall into, decoration, npcs, ...) it would make sense to use this recursive pattern otherwise I don't know if it would make sense.


The recursive patter is exactly what you want though. You can make a pair of bots one unit and a unit of one bot and place them either isolated or together. So either you have 1 and 2 bots split or 3 as a group on the same map. You can do the same with resources.

GFX's approach just cuts down on the billions of possible unininteresting random placements of things on the map and just picks out a few interesting patterns. Of course you can't generate an infinite amount of maps per layout with resources and bots or bots only, but 10 per layout would be fine as well for now.

You can have kingmaker with all resources at the bottom, all resources at the top, one bot on the other side of the map, all bots on the other side of the map, keep the layout but start with teams at mid range, or start from out of range etc. etc.

Jeffrey Harpen
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#7 » 24 Sep 2017, 10:57

LuBeNo wrote:If best score map decide count of resources 1 (5%), 3 (10%), 5 (35%), 7 (35%), 9 (10%), 11 (5%)
[...]
What are your ideas? More rules? Change percentages? Other things to consider?
Talking about number of resources I would add some even numbers. There are maps with 2 resources in practice mode and they are more challenging than these with 3 or 5. I guess you have to be more aggresive (or clever) to win such a match, so it won't keep us with the same safe strategy in every random map match.

pier4r
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#8 » 24 Sep 2017, 13:11

we already discussed the even number of resources. It may end in too many draws.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

Jeffrey Harpen
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#9 » 24 Sep 2017, 21:00

Yes, I know, but I still would like to see some random maps with even number of resources. 5% maybe?

pier4r
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#10 » 24 Sep 2017, 21:04

ah that yes. I mean, at the end even draws are not that bad (furthermore I don't think it will be draws for everyone, the difference of skill will show it)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

mcompany
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#11 » 26 Sep 2017, 05:02

Meh, idk, I still worry that draws on even resource maps would be way too much of a common occurrence between matches within the same league. Honestly, I'd rather have the ability to have more interesting maps (such as LR) than even resource maps. Also, with the possibility of draws being so much higher on those maps, I think more players might not have a reason to play any more aggressive than necessary if they could settle with the draw, leading to even much safer gameplay

sollniss
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#12 » 26 Sep 2017, 18:46

mcompany wrote:I think more players might not have a reason to play any more aggressive than necessary if they could settle with the draw, leading to even much safer gameplay


And how are players supposed to know that on a random map?

TheKidPunisher
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#13 » 26 Sep 2017, 19:01

Jeffrey Harpen wrote:Talking about number of resources I would add some even numbers.


And you want to add the "Tic-Tac-Toe" problem in this awesome game ? it's sad...

mcompany
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#14 » 26 Sep 2017, 20:10

sollniss wrote:
mcompany wrote:I think more players might not have a reason to play any more aggressive than necessary if they could settle with the draw, leading to even much safer gameplay


And how are players supposed to know that on a random map?

Fair point if you don't consider tags as viable... until tags becomes instant. Then it would be pretty easy

Even if, while I do think Ambidextrous is the fairest way to do a even resource map, even then you have the problem where if two players ate similar enough in strategy that as soon as player A picks up a resource they will lose the strength in numbers to keep pushing allowing player B to pick up the next resource. Either way, you are setting up for a draw for large number of matches within the same league

Jeffrey Harpen
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#15 » 26 Sep 2017, 23:46

TheKidPunisher wrote:
Jeffrey Harpen wrote:Talking about number of resources I would add some even numbers.

And you want to add the "Tic-Tac-Toe" problem in this awesome game ?

Nope. I want to leave a possibility for some new strategies someone may develop to solve an unusual problem.

mcompany
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#16 » 27 Sep 2017, 00:17

Jeffrey Harpen wrote:
TheKidPunisher wrote:And you want to add the "Tic-Tac-Toe" problem in this awesome game ?

Nope. I want to leave a possibility for some new strategies someone may develop to solve an unusual problem.

Map complexity is by no means related to whether their is an even or odd number of resources. (Not to mention that I don't think there is much any AI can gain from an even resource map as compared to an odd resource count

sollniss
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#17 » 27 Sep 2017, 04:36

How about this:

If the map has even resources it

* becomes a win if one player collects more resources than the other player
* it becomes an elimination if both player collect the same amount of resources
* it becomes an elimination match if no player collects a resource

This way we get a mixed mode. So you only tie if no bot or same amount of bots die AND both players collect the same amount of resources. This should be rare enough.

mcompany
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Re: Random map suggestions

Post#18 » 27 Sep 2017, 06:13

Umm... first off, I feel like it would seem inconsistent if it was only for even resource maps, end second, if it goes for all maps then may I introduce you to an old request of mine: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=503

So far, unless people changed their opinion, the answer is no

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