New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#21 » 29 Jun 2017, 19:47

harthag wrote:
GFX47 wrote: I'd like the leader to be a crucial member of the team on the strategic level.

If you want to do it that way just cause you like it, go for it, it's your game.

Personally, I think variety of possibilities is one of the best aspects of the game, so making one specific class "crucial" is a step backward from the variety appeal.


+1 for the whole post.
It is your game do what you want we are just here to bring you ours opinions.

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0x1de
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#22 » 01 Jul 2017, 03:50

I love the idea of low cost tagging.
GFX47 wrote:Instant tags mean another action can be executed after a tagging action during an AI tick.
It also applies to tagging actions.
So you can have several tagging actions followed by a classic action during an AI tick.
Tagging actions rely on the existing tags.
During a single AI tick, you can chain instant tagging actions having the knowledge of what you just tagged or untagged.
Instant actions for a single bot are evaluated sequentially.

Would that allow any node to follow, or just actions? Is the tag applied when the node is parsed, or only when the full chain is successful? I can see problems/opportunities with regression.

GFX47 wrote:Team tags are shared.
The AI evaluations of two different bots are (virtually) simultaneous.
So if you give them both access to team tags modifications, they can't rely on the existing team tags to decide which tagging actions to execute.
That's why only one bot per team should be able to modify instant team tags.

This issue already exists. It's up to us to deal with it. I already have dedicated tagging AIs, so making a"leader" AI is up to me. I am wary of a leader bot class because that brings physical constraints (health, shield, etc).

You've created an environment where all sorts of things can be implemented. Who could have predicted that bloody victory dance? Keep up the good work.

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#23 » 01 Jul 2017, 06:40

GFX47 wrote:
Instant tags mean another action can be executed after a tagging action during an AI tick.
It also applies to tagging actions.
So you can have several tagging actions followed by a classic action during an AI tick.
Tagging actions rely on the existing tags.
During a single AI tick, you can chain instant tagging actions having the knowledge of what you just tagged or untagged.
Instant actions for a single bot are evaluated sequentially.

Team tags are shared.
The AI evaluations of two different bots are (virtually) simultaneous.
So if you give them both access to team tags modifications, they can't rely on the existing team tags to decide which tagging actions to execute.
That's why only one bot per team should be able to modify instant team tags.

So I skimmed the beginning of this message and thought it only explained how instant tags would work, which already sounded like what I already said it should be, so I stopped reading. I guess there was more to the post, particularly why there would only be the leader who could manipulate team tags.

First off, I guess I should explain why I think (as a whole) one bot class shouldn't be the only bot with team tags.
The importance of team tags mainly could be used to filling in the gap of what the refactoring update was supposed to give: shared information between bots.
I know firsthand that one bot can't figure out what any other bot can see and team tags is the easiest way to implement that without actually having the feature. However, if only one bot had team tags, it would basically remove most of the use of team tags' usability, and hurt the options any bot has (and if bot tags wasn't instant, it probably would lead to tags being worse than what they are currently). Not only that, but it also puts all of our trust for tags in one bot, which further weakens the use of team tags if it was limited to one bot class, hence my message:
mcompany wrote:Honestly I doubt that would end up happening unless there was some REALLY good reason to rely on the leader, but I doubt just team tags without any other way to gain the information is going to make that happen


As for the actual problem at hand (tags can't be relied on because how do you get it to happen simultaneously), that's been a problem since 6.1. I don't actually have a good solution to it (besides the one class limit, which like I said, has major problems of its own), and at the very least one could potentially just make thing use the same flawed system we already have: not care that later bots will overwrite earlier bots and continue playing oblivious to it

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LuBeNo
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#24 » 01 Jul 2017, 09:05

I also think the tags should not be restricted to the Commander class. It is essential for a bot to call for help. (as only he knows, what happens next to him)

Regarding 2 bots team tagging at the same time. I don't think there are much problems if the bots execute their plans (and team tag while doing) in instantiation order.
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harthag
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#25 » 02 Jul 2017, 00:53

mcompany wrote:...one bot can't figure out what any other bot can see and team tags is the easiest way to implement that...

LuBeNo wrote: It is essential for a bot to call for help. (as only he knows, what happens next to him)

+1
+1
Excellent points.

I've been reading through this thread and, without taking in to account bot stats, only tagging, and assuming that there is no avoiding the addition of a "leader" or "commander" class, this is how I would suggest it:
Tagging for non-leader bit classes take up the normal tick for the bot, but then have a cool down time before they can edit tags again, maybe 2-4 ticks (?). Leader class can instant tag, or maybe tag every half tick, with no cool down. This way (or some variation) still allows all classes to relay information, while still making the "leader" a great deal more flexibility with tags and commands than the other classes have.

MrChris
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#26 » 07 Jul 2017, 19:03

What's this Leader class all about and why are they the only people able to place Team Tags? I have different bots that place team tags in different scenarios so this will ruin me.

What's the rationale behind the Leader class?
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#27 » 07 Jul 2017, 19:19

All units need to be able to TeamTag! If it's just one then they basically become a useless feature, but they are such a great part of the game!

How would I team tag all units within X range of my SG if only the Leader unit can do it? Unless you provide a new mechanism for doing it then it won't be possible and you'll remove a lot of the advanced functionality from the game which would be a real shame. My CoD AI wouldn't be able to work like it does, any many other maps AIs too.

This seems totally pointless and will make the game less interesting. I really hope this will be given a re-think.
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#28 » 07 Jul 2017, 19:23

A new piece of functionality I am looking to add is to team tag a unit that can almost certainly be destroyed so that other units will switch aim to it. I do this in CoD, but im looking to generalise it to all my maps. If only the leader class can do it then this idea goes out of the window. I know Ritter has similar functionality which can be deadily on SYP. Ritter also tags some units as Cowardly and then pushes more aggressive towards those units. Please reconsider this.

It really doesn't matter if later bots in the same tic override earlier bots tagging (or vice-versa) - it's a problem we need to deal with by designing around it. It's something i've never had problems with before, and it's not a big deal. Please don't remove a massive piece of functionality from the game just to solve this tiny insignificant problem.
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MrChris
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#29 » 07 Jul 2017, 19:30

If you want to make team tagging easier then we need more tags. Also, it would be useful to indicate next to each AI which tags they will create and read from. This would stop us accidentally overriding tags we already use and allow us to manage their usage more easily
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TheKidPunisher
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#30 » 07 Jul 2017, 20:25

evilgeenius2 wrote:If you want to make team tagging easier then we need more tags. Also, it would be useful to indicate next to each AI which tags they will create and read from. This would stop us accidentally overriding tags we already use and allow us to manage their usage more easily


I dont think lile that. For me tag is good actually. It take time to repertoriate and do classification and with the actual tag you can have more 30 classifications if you want.

MrChris
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#31 » 07 Jul 2017, 21:52

Yes you can by tagging the different bases to get more combinations etc... But I think it would be simpler if you we had enough tags without having to resort to such trickery.
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GFX47
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#32 » 24 Jan 2018, 18:17

ICYMI, instant tagging is coming in Alpha 12.
(sorry, didn't find a more recent thread about instant tagging)

pier4r
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#33 » 26 Jan 2018, 21:39

ok, that's quite a move to explode the expressiveness of the language (I mean, if one wants to be competitive, otherwise for personal tests one could use tags already).
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

WASP103
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#34 » 20 Feb 2018, 11:17

GFX47 wrote:Some clarification: leader class will be the only one able the modify team tags but every teammate will be able to read them.
(...)
So if you give them both access to team tags modifications, they can't rely on the existing team tags to decide which tagging actions to execute.
That's why only one bot per team should be able to modify instant team tags.


With tagging as it is in 12, I can determine a "leader" Bot already. And that can now change once that bot dies, so another one can take over. Limiting this to one bot in the team would be making that bot one of the main targets not to risk.

And on the other hand you can do some really nice stuff with triangulation when everyone can access those team tags. If I could help it, I would beg you not to limit that to only one specific bot as that would kill a lot of the magic you can do with tagging right now. @GFX47 I would love to clarify what I mean without sharing my code with everyone else, so I could send you screens :D But I'm quite sure you can already check out a player's AI layout anyway.

I'd really love to keep a discussion about that open.

Edit:
Thinking about having to encode two separate systems, one with leader present and another one without an active leader class, I think that would bloat my codebase to nearly double. -.-

ElvenMonk
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#35 » 01 May 2018, 08:37

GFX47 wrote:Tags should become instant in alpha 12.
It will become possible once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.


Pls, don't do that (leaving other bots without team tags). How could I have personal team tag for each bot then?

pier4r
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#36 » 01 May 2018, 12:50

hmm elevenMonk has a point. How can different bots exchange data (i.e: communicate) without being able to set team tags around?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Gladiabots/wiki/players/pier4r_nvidia_shield_k1 -> Gladiabots CHAT, stats, insights and more ;

mcompany
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#37 » 08 May 2018, 19:07

ElvenMonk wrote:
GFX47 wrote:Tags should become instant in alpha 12.
It will become possible once the Leader class is implemented. It will be the only class able to place team tags.


Pls, don't do that (leaving other bots without team tags). How could I have personal team tag for each bot then?

It's almost like I already complained about that at the top of this very page :roll:

ElvenMonk
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Re: New tagging system (yes, baby, yes! instantly tagging alternative, etc...)

Post#38 » 10 May 2018, 09:38

If we only had another way for bot to find out, that any particular object is a target of specific ally or enemy bot. Or determine distance between 2 objects, none of which is a bot itself.

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