New rate of damage condition

G.M. [rogueleader]
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New rate of damage condition

Post#1 » 06 Mar 2018, 21:46

Can we add a condition for losing health and looking/gaining shield? Ex:

If self health reduced by 20% by 3 seconds.

if self shield reduced by 60% by 5 seconds.


The reason for the "by # second" is to tell the rate of damage. Without it, this would just be a current health/shield condition, like what we already have. Also this new condition would pair up very nicely with the current health/shield condition if you were to use the condition current health->shield reduction rate-> flee(action if large reduction rate)/ nothing/continue attacking(action if small reduction rate). This would be helpful for managing attacking when outnumbered, or when the enemy bots are about to regroup to focus fire.
Last edited by G.M. [rogueleader] on 08 Mar 2018, 20:36, edited 1 time in total.

pier4r
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Re: New condition

Post#2 » 06 Mar 2018, 22:18

Small request. Could you edit your topic title to make it more informative?

Like "new condition, changes in shield/health against time".

"new condition" is generic and make it difficult for others to see it when they search in the forum.
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Hairy Phil
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Re: New condition

Post#3 » 06 Mar 2018, 22:19

Nice idea but I think it's redundant because of aiming. If there are three enemies aiming at you, then that's the moment at which you want to flee, you don't want to wait for them to hit you. Which means that any damage detection algorithm would still require an aim detection algorithm, and therefore the damage detection ability is redundant.

Also, predicting damage based on bot class and range (example: shotgun at short range, or assault at long range) is already possible and is one of your skills tested when writing a good flee subroutine. In my opinion, putting in a catch-all condition like you describe would remove a lot of sub-goals and strategy and actually make the game less fun.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind a little less hard-coding. For example, instead of writing "if being attacked by sniper", writing "if being attacked by high-damage enemy" would make the AI a little more flexible if new bot classes or buffs were introduced.

G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New condition

Post#4 » 08 Mar 2018, 20:34

Hairy Phil wrote:Nice idea but I think it's redundant because of aiming. If there are three enemies aiming at you, then that's the moment at which you want to flee, you don't want to wait for them to hit you. Which means that any damage detection algorithm would still require an aim detection algorithm, and therefore the damage detection ability is redundant.


I would argue that if you use aiming condition instead of the health/shield reduction rate in X time, the bot would be suseptible to studder step. If the enemy aims for say 1 second before attacking each tater, then that gives them a head start with attacking because you would back up.

Hairy Phil wrote: Also, predicting damage based on bot class and range (example: shotgun at short range, or assault at long range) is already possible and is one of your skills tested when writing a good flee subroutine.

True, but it would serve the same function while using less nodes by not needing to detect the class of each specified bot, then detecting when they attack.

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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#5 » 09 Mar 2018, 09:17

I can understand the argument of Phil though. I mean reducing nodes is nice but not much when they do the work for you.

For example counting already reduced a lot of work. So there should be a proper balance to avoid making things a no brainier.
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Re: New condition

Post#6 » 09 Mar 2018, 11:46

G.M. [rogueleader] wrote:it would serve the same function


That's exactly the problem. It would be having the system write the code for you instead of writing it yourself, which is literally the purpose of the game. You wouldn't approve of a single node that said "attack bots and capture resources and flee from danger".

So where do we draw the line when trying to reduce number of nodes? If you were talking about repetative, stock, labourious code (for example, a Score action would *always* be preceded by an "if I have a resource" condition), then it would be beneficial to reduce the number of nodes because this would have no effect on strategy because it's identical for everyone. But each player's damage detection algorithms are different, they can't be summarised in a single node, and it would be unfair to give a new player such a fine-tuned algorithm for free without them having to earn it by getting good at coding and strategy, which is where the fun of the game comes from. Having to write your own flee algorithm is not a waste of time.

So I don't see it as a limitation in the coding language if a flee action has to be preceded by say four conditions (enemy class/range/count/myshield) instead of just one condition ("if receiving high damage").

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Re: New condition

Post#7 » 09 Mar 2018, 12:34

Hairy Phil wrote:
That's exactly the problem. It would be having the system write the code for you instead of writing it yourself, which is literally the purpose of the game. You wouldn't approve of a single node that said "attack bots and capture resources and flee from danger".

So where do we draw the line when trying to reduce number of nodes? If you were talking about repetative, stock, labourious code (for example, a Score action would *always* be preceded by an "if I have a resource" condition), then it would be beneficial to reduce the number of nodes because this would have no effect on strategy because it's identical for everyone. But each player's damage detection algorithms are different, they can't be summarised in a single node, and it would be unfair to give a new player such a fine-tuned algorithm for free without them having to earn it by getting good at coding and strategy, which is where the fun of the game comes from. Having to write your own flee algorithm is not a waste of time.

So I don't see it as a limitation in the coding language if a flee action has to be preceded by say four conditions (enemy class/range/count/myshield) instead of just one condition ("if receiving high damage").


I strongly agree on the bold part. Well said.

Plus I add on the "let's have a node that does everything for me".

You know I can easily develop code for self driving cars.
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#8 » 12 Mar 2018, 20:04

Well let me clear this up: I'm not trying to make the system do all the work for me. Or even any work other than following instructions. I reread my post and your comment and I agree with what you are saying, which is something that I overlooked at first. However I still feel that this can give forward progress instead of losing progress. Its a specific scenario, but I think it is valid:
In a 5v5 match you have one machine gun class in the center of the formation, using it to draw fire. The moment that the enemies FIRE (after aiming) the machine gun bot would tag itself, triggering the rest of the ally bots to move up and focus fire while the machine gun bot regenerates. Repeat until clear outnumbering advantage (say, two enemy left), then swarm.

G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#9 » 12 Mar 2018, 20:07

Also for the example, the remaining 4 allies would remain just outside of target range but still fire, to keep enemy on their toes. When they move up, they gain accuracy being at closer range

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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#10 » 12 Mar 2018, 20:19

wouldn't be enough to know that the machine gun at the center is targeted and all the other bots are not targeted at all? Even if the enemy is not firing (once the aim-fire process is distrupted, they are sitting ducks). Push in the enemy face and obliterate him.
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#11 » 12 Mar 2018, 21:09

Okay, but I don't understand how your proposed strategy could be successful. You're on defence and the enemy has fired first.

If there are five enemy bots attacking your MG from medium range, because they're not attacking your four allies out of range, and you haven't retreated, then your MG is not going to regenerate, it's just going to sit there and be killed. Surely your 4 bots focussing fire delayed by a move are not going to stop 5 bots focussing fire without the delay of a move?

And still, I don't see the advantage in taking the damage instead of just anticipating it? Why not move up as soon as the MG is targeted by multiple bots and interrupt them? Adding "and shield < 75%" would achieve the same effect that you're proposing.

G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#12 » 13 Mar 2018, 19:25

Ok. True. Nvm then

G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#13 » 13 Mar 2018, 20:11

Should I delete this topic, or leave it so no one adds this topic?

pier4r
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#14 » 13 Mar 2018, 20:20

My idea: always leaving contributions, especially if also others spent time to discuss pro and cons of the contribution.

In particular the posts of Hairy Phil can be used also later on as reference, since they catch nice concepts.

A question: have you already deleted your topics in the past? If yes, why? Even a negative result like "Do we do X? No, because Y" is a useful information.

Even a topic with no answer is an information: it conveys that the community was not interested in it.
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Hairy Phil
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#15 » 13 Mar 2018, 20:33

I was hoping you were about to reveal some amazing strategy that I hadn't heard of before. :-)

It's worth keeping ideas. It's possible that in the future there will be a new bot type or match mode that will make rate of damage useful.

G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#16 » 13 Mar 2018, 20:44

pier4r wrote:My idea: always leaving contributions, especially if also others spent time to discuss pro and cons of the contribution.

In particular the posts of Hairy Phil can be used also later on as reference, since they catch nice concepts.

A question: have you already deleted your topics in the past? If yes, why? Even a negative result like "Do we do X? No, because Y" is a useful information.

Even a topic with no answer is an information: it conveys that the community was not interested in it.

No I haven't been deleting anything. Then again this is the first epic flop I've had, or at least of this scale. Also, I have a few topics that have gone unread, uncommented on. Is there a way to bring it back up to the top to catch someone's eye without having to create a new one?

pier4r
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#17 » 13 Mar 2018, 22:06

Yes you can bring a topic to the top (every forum works in this way, more or less), just make a new reply in the topic.

And this thread was not an epic flop. It just doesn't fit at the moment.
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G.M. [rogueleader]
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Re: New rate of damage condition

Post#18 » 14 Mar 2018, 00:04

Ok. Thank you!

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