Buff Assault Class

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Revenge
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Buff Assault Class

Post#1 » 12 Oct 2017, 20:57

As many people already know, there is a plan to eventually implement a 4v4 mode with 1 of each bot type. If this is to happen, i believe that the assault class desperately needs a dps buff in order to compete with the other classes.

Currently the assault is the weakest class in the game. It is supposed to be "average", but is severely under-powered in comparison to other classes. The assault class has low shield, average movement, and weak damage. Tieing for medium/long damage with the shotgun class, while having the shield capacity of a sniper.

Source(Wiki-MCompany): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

To balance the Assault class, it needs a dps buff and a shield to compensate.
Example:
+15% damage
+450 shield capacity(+15%)

Leaving it with similarly proportional stats, while allowing it to fight on better terms against other bot classes. Even without the 4v4 mode, buffing the assault class would allow it to be more aggressive giving a more exciting game-state. :)

sollniss
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#2 » 12 Oct 2017, 22:05

I mean we can just make what the Assault is now into the "Leader" class. The Leader is supposed to be weaker in combat, but brings special abilities with it.

Just rename it.

mcompany
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#3 » 12 Oct 2017, 22:27

sollniss wrote:I mean we can just make what the Assault is now into the "Leader" class. The Leader is supposed to be weaker in combat, but brings special abilities with it.

Just rename it.

1. Assault might actually be too strong of a bot for this if you want the leader to be severally underpowered.
2. Eww, no. I have memories of the attempts of what I tried to do with tags during 6.1, and I am guaranteeing that locking all team tags behind one bot is a bad idea unless somehow gfx figured out a way to do the refactoring update. If the leader class was implemented, it would make team tags effectively useless (and despite being instant, I think it would be more useless than what we have right now), and that would hurt any sort of team based strategy much more than random map generic only would

Anyways, I would support these buffs to assault, but only for the random maps update, not for the way things currently are. If anything though, I'm much more worried about the fact that shotgun does literally everything assault does but better (kinda invalidating assault rather than simply being better than assault). Also, +450 shield almost doesn't sound like a buff at all

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#4 » 13 Oct 2017, 00:40

i find my old sheet of paper were i calculate the damage and dont have the same result for DPS...

Type/Short Range/Medium Range/Long Range
Assault/1246/692/138
SG/2250/750/150
MG/2000/1250/250
Sniper/666/666/666

Edit: i see where is the difference but why do you reduce by 1 the number of shot during your calculation (it means that you reduce the time attack of assault from 0.3s to 0.2s)?

Anyway, i think GFX already works on the balance between bot class as he wants to add more classes, if he wants some ideas from us sure he will ask for it.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#5 » 13 Oct 2017, 01:13

TheKidPunisher wrote:Edit: i see where is the difference but why do you reduce by 1 the number of shot during your calculation (it means that you reduce the time attack of assault from 0.3s to 0.2s)?

Same reason a full attack cycle for shotgun and sniper is 1000 ms and 3000 ms respectively instead of 1100 ms and 3100 ms. There us no reload cooldown between shots after the last shot, it just immediately starts its full reload. An assault's true cycle is 1200 ms, and a machine gun's true cycle is 9925 ms

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#6 » 13 Oct 2017, 03:32

mcompany wrote:Same reason a full attack cycle for shotgun and sniper is 1000 ms and 3000 ms respectively instead of 1100 ms and 3100 ms. There us no reload cooldown between shots after the last shot, it just immediately starts its full reload


Where do you find these values?
I agree with that, it correspond too with the value given by the game


mcompany wrote:An assault's true cycle is 1200 ms, and a machine gun's true cycle is 9925 ms

Ok if it is the real value so GFX needs to correct the in-game information.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#7 » 13 Oct 2017, 05:31

TheKidPunisher wrote:
mcompany wrote:Same reason a full attack cycle for shotgun and sniper is 1000 ms and 3000 ms respectively instead of 1100 ms and 3100 ms. There us no reload cooldown between shots after the last shot, it just immediately starts its full reload


Where do you find these values?
I agree with that, it correspond too with the value given by the game

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17#p61
considering that none of the attack data has changed since 5.2 for sniper or shotgun, it is likely that they still have a cooldown between bullets of 100 ms
(Also the underlined was actually confirmed here

TheKidPunisher wrote:
mcompany wrote:An assault's true cycle is 1200 ms, and a machine gun's true cycle is 9925 ms

Ok if it is the real value so GFX needs to correct the in-game information.

Meh, maybe so, but since gfx doesn't clarify the amount of time between shots for assault or machine gun, I'm somewhat glad he messed that information in the tooltup up (makes it easier to get that information)

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#8 » 13 Oct 2017, 07:45

Tooltip values come directly from the game configuration.
I think you mix this with AI reactivity in your tests.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#9 » 13 Oct 2017, 07:49

TheKidPunisher wrote:Where do you find these values?

Wiki:
Bot classes > Shooting stats
Game mechanics > Shooting process
Wiki wrote:If they have another shot to take during the attack cycle, they will then wait for the time between shots and repeat step 2. The total time spent shooting all bullets is the attack duration.
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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#10 » 13 Oct 2017, 10:02

GFX47 wrote:Tooltip values come directly from the game configuration.
I think you mix this with AI reactivity in your tests.

I'm not quite calling the tooltip wrong from any tests directly, but from the information you gave in the bot stats topic (which in turn has been shown to be accurate to the milisecond with what happens in-game). So stuff like the tooltip thinking that an assault would take 300ms to waste all of its bullets is wrong, because the actual time taken isn't 3*100 ms, but (3-1)*100 ms. So the tooltip actually legitimately calculates its information wrong for the total time shooting, but since it is wrong, it is much easier to get the real values than if it started out being correct

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#11 » 13 Oct 2017, 10:36

As Pier4r said before counting was possible, assault bots were interesting because they were difficult to count. In maps like CoD it could destroy best AIs.

But now, assaults bots are just weak. It would be so interesting to add area buffs. I can't remember who had this idea - maybe TKP ? - , but it could be:

- Assaults have +15% power when next to other assault bots / or + 15% shield - harder to manage I think
- Assaults give +15% attack speed to close friendly units, or +15% move speed
- Assaults give -15% move speed to the bot it attacks during 1 sec.

It could totally change the way we write our AIs. Today, the challenge is basically : good focus fire, good retreating/pushing. This would add so much complexity into the game.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#12 » 13 Oct 2017, 14:40

TheGnoo wrote:As Pier4r said before counting was possible, assault bots were interesting because they were difficult to count. In maps like CoD it could destroy best AIs.

But now, assaults bots are just weak. It would be so interesting to add area buffs. I can't remember who had this idea - maybe TKP ? - , but it could be:

- Assaults have +15% power when next to other assault bots / or + 15% shield - harder to manage I think
- Assaults give +15% attack speed to close friendly units, or +15% move speed
- Assaults give -15% move speed to the bot it attacks during 1 sec.

It could totally change the way we write our AIs. Today, the challenge is basically : good focus fire, good retreating/pushing. This would add so much complexity into the game.


That would kill any strategies for bots to spread out. Bots already clump together so adding a flat 15% attack would be the same. Anything that slows a bot would be op. :)

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#13 » 13 Oct 2017, 17:20

I didnt look well the first time i see your post

Revenge wrote:Tieing for medium/long damage with the shotgun class


This is actually wrong, shotgun does no damage at long range or atleast with less efficiency (in 1v1 it deals nothing)

@thegnoo: i never propose thing like that, just said that the power of assault is when they are group (i was against modification for them, but now if we will have an assault alone in team compo, i say why not try a balance modification)

@GFX: After some verification, it seems that the real time of the "attack duration" for assault is 0.2s so the in-game value is wrong (it says that it is 0.3s) and i do not test for the MG but maybe it is false too.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#14 » 13 Oct 2017, 17:22

It ties for damage, but enemy shield regenerates cause it doesn't hit often enough.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#15 » 13 Oct 2017, 17:52

TheKidPunisher wrote:
Revenge wrote:Tieing for medium/long damage with the shotgun class


This is actually wrong, shotgun does no damage at long range or atleast with less efficiency (in 1v1 it deals nothing)

This is actually wrong. Shotgun does do damage, just once every 4 seconds. 4 seconds is enough time that the opponent's shield will heel one third of its total shield before the next bullet lands. So shotgun does do damage at long range (which is equal overall to assault), but shotgun can't really maintain the damage unless it has an ally to keep the shield down
Last edited by mcompany on 13 Oct 2017, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#16 » 13 Oct 2017, 17:55

mcompany wrote:
TheKidPunisher wrote:
Revenge wrote:Tieing for medium/long damage with the shotgun class


This is actually wrong, shotgun does no damage at long range or atleast with less efficiency (in 1v1 it deals nothing)

This is actually wrong. Shotgun does do damage, just once every 4 seconds. 4 seconds is enough time that the opponent's shield will heel one third of its total shield before the next bullet lands. So shotgun does do damage at long range (which is equal overall to assault), but shotgun can really maintain the damage unless it has an ally to keep the shield down


yeah true, the game isn't a 1v1.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#17 » 16 Oct 2017, 00:58

OK there's indeed an error in the tooltip attack duration, thanks for reporting it!

It is currently

Code: Select all

burst count * burst duration

instead of

Code: Select all

(burst count - 1) * burst duration


It will be fixed in Alpha 11.
So the real values are 0.2s for assault and 7.425s for MG.

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#18 » 16 Oct 2017, 01:03

By the way, what about those tweaks:

Assault: 90% SR, 60% MR, 30% LR

New DPS-es:

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      135000    90000   45000
Shotgun      225000    75000   15000
MachineGun   201511   125945   25189
Sniper        66667    66667   66667

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#19 » 16 Oct 2017, 05:56

GFX47 wrote:By the way, what about those tweaks:

Assault: 90% SR, 60% MR, 30% LR

New DPS-es:

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      135000    90000   45000
Shotgun      225000    75000   15000
MachineGun   201511   125945   25189
Sniper        66667    66667   66667

60% Medium accuracy would be perfect. I'd recommend trying 20% Long Range Accuracy, as 30% Long Accuracy would nullify the sniper's role. :)

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      135000    90000   30000
Shotgun      225000    75000   15000
MachineGun   201511   125945   25189
Sniper        66667    66667   66667

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Re: Buff Assault Class

Post#20 » 16 Oct 2017, 07:18

GFX47 wrote:By the way, what about those tweaks:

Assault: 90% SR, 60% MR, 30% LR

New DPS-es:

Code: Select all

                SR       MR       LR
Assault      135000    90000   45000
Shotgun      225000    75000   15000
MachineGun   201511   125945   25189
Sniper        66667    66667   66667


*Ahem*, please divide your values by 100. this is damage per second, not damage per 100 seconds

Anyways looks decent enough... although assault being stronger than machine gun at long range is a pretty scary prospect (20% is also stronger than machine gun). Also, 30% seems to be creeping up on sniper's damage (44.44...% is equal damage by the way). Though, I guess we have to keep in mind random maps, not the current set up.

Revenge wrote:60% Medium accuracy would be perfect. I'd recommend trying 20% Long Range Accuracy, as 30% Long Accuracy would nullify the sniper's role. :)

Meh, I say test it. At the very least, we could make snipers at least start to think twice about their actions. But I wouldn't be surprised if you're right

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